Nick's TMNT

Also, now that all 193 episodes of the 1987 series will be streaming on Paramount+ in 2024, do you think the show will be digitally remastered?

Edited by gjjones on Sep 21st 2023 at 7:54:28 AM

If it does, I do want to see a TMNT upgrade on image quality for the character page.

Gone through episodes 3-6 of Season 2 of Rise. Still lots of silly stuff.

Skin and bones is a formidable combination.

Just did the Hidden City four parter (April, Raph and Leo got screwed. Donnie deserves to be in jail) and episode 10. Also, I'm pretty sure those guys who showed up in Raph's story were previous TMNT voice actors (I think the one dude was 2012 Mikey, and the other might have been one of the 2012 Leo's. Not sure about the purple one).

A Karate Kid parody in Ninja Turtles is something I never knew I wanted (just like Cobra Kai), but it's a shame we didn't get to see what the Seven Deadly Vipers move looks like, but it smoked Bradford.

And now we know that Donnie records everything.

Edit: And Battle Nexus New Yor is finished (though it cut off for me right when Big Mama failed to escape).

I'm hoping to finish the last four episodes of the second season tomorrow.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Sep 23rd 2023 at 7:04:57 AM

Seth Green, Rob Paulsen, and Greg Cipes voiced those three guys, and they were the 2012 Leo, Donnie, and Mikey.

I thought so.

I remember Seth Green was the second Leo.

I believe the first one was Jason Biggs, but he did something bad so they replaced him with Seth Green (even using the Leo gets beat up arc to damage the character's voice in universe to justify it).

I thought as much. Fun to hear them again.

Rise has pretty much become my favourite take on the franchise, so I would hope that this iteration will be continued in the future. I would also be curious about seeing new elements from this show adapted for other versions, like the IDW comic. While the comic is mostly on the dark and serious side, it has often managed to add in some of the silliest and most kid-friendly elements in the franchise, usually with good results. So I think it could work pretty well to feature the Hidden City and introduce some of the villains from Rise into the comic. I could particularly see Meat Sweats portrayed more directly like a serial killer of mutants, to steal their abilities. Regardless of where they would be used, Hypnopotamus, Warren Stone, and Repo Mantis seem like they would be a good fit with Bebop and Rocksteady.

Honestly, one of the oddest things about the franchise is how it's come around and embraced everything from the first cartoon.

Laird and Eastman hated it at first didn't they? But even back then, things from that show found their way into the franchise as early as the first Live Action movie, where they incorporated the Blue, Purple and Orange Bandanas for Leonardo, Donatello, and Michaelangelo, and made April a reporter instead of a computer programmer

After Turtles Forever and the 2003 series, 2012 then really started getting into the old 1986 stuff, and the new IDW comic is even using fracking Venus De Milo, who was so hated they bought the rights to her to make sure she never appeared again. Sure, she's got that kind of Frankenstein thing going, but from what I know of the comic, she's pretty heroic.

Like, they're using Venus. I literally think there's no character or concept that's off limits now.

Laird and Eastman seem to have really flipped now on a lot of concepts they used to hate. I rather like it.

People often point to Venus and say "She was in Next Mutation and that show was bad, so it must have been bad because of her!" But, if you've seen Next Mutation, Venus was one of the least horrific things in it. I don't think it was necessary to add a fifth turtle, but if you removed her from it, that show would still suck.

Fair enough, though I think their reasons for initially disliking her came from more than that.

I can't fully recall the exact details.

It should probably be noted that Peter Laird is not involved with Ninja Turtles anymore, and hasn't been for a long time. He sold TMNT to Nickelodeon, and has pretty much washed his hands of the franchise since then.

As for Venus... The funny things is, after The Next Mutation, Kevin Eastman wanted to bring her into the comics, and make her a permanent part of the team. Laird was dead set against it. Their relationship at that point was already on thin ice for various reasons, but Eastman wanting to bring in Venus was the last straw. Their working relationship ended, and Eastman left Mirage. Laird handled the comics by himself for years until selling. Eastman didn't return until Nick got the rights.

As for Next Mutation, the turtles were generally portrayed as a bunch of childish idiots in that show. Venus was arguably the least annoying character there.

The turtles are teenagers. Something far more idiotic was letting Shredder live in their lair because he somehow got depowered or something.

I can't ever hate Next Mutation no matter how bad it was.

Cause I still remember the crossover with Power Rangers in Space where they were brainwashed to kick the rangers off the ship so Astronema could take over. They piloted the ship through a wormhole that broke the brainwashing, but Astronema bolted before they could get her.

She also put a bomb on the ship.

Cue a moment where all the turtles let that sink in before promptly flipping the fuck out and hightailing it to the main computer room to turn off the bomb.

This includes Venus, who's probably the next most serious one after Leo.

Rob never forgets. You make me laugh, I can forgive anything.

I won't ever watch the show again (unless I can find that specific clip), but I'll never hate it.

Edit: So if Laird was the one who hated Venus the most, then was he the one with all the issues towards the 1986 series? Cause with the increased use of stuff from that part of the franchise as well, it would make sense that him and Eastman parting ways (and Eastman coming back once Nickelodeon took over) is what lead to that stuff being treated with more respect.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Sep 25th 2023 at 6:13:35 AM

Yes. For identification purposes, Peter Laird is the old guy with glasses. Kevin Eastman is the younger guy with curly brown hair.

If I'm not mistaken Laird's problem with Venus wasn't originating from Next Mutation but being created for the purpose of attempting to ship her with the male turtles which means they needed to be not related biologically.

From what I can tell, Kevin Eastman generally has a more relaxed attitude towards TMNT lore stuff. He's willing to go along with a lot of stuff, as long as it doesn't outright hurt the franchise.

Laird on the other hand had more strict ideas about what TMNT should be and shouldn't be. For example, he felt that the turtles and Splinter should always be the only mutants in the world (Leatherhead being the one exception). He felt that it made their existence more unique, and also more tragic. Laird was also completely against ever having a girl turtle. Not just Venus, but ANY female turtle, ever. In the 80s cartoon, Mona Lisa was actually originally supposed to be a female turtle. But Laird vetoed the idea. He said that adding a female turtle, even just as a one off, was "a stupid, pointless, creatively bankrupt idea". So, the cartoon writers changed her into a lizard instead.

The second live action movie was originally supposed to have Bebop and Rocksteady, but Laird again objected. Because he had grown to dislike the cartoon, and didn't want those characters to appear. So, they created Tokka and Razar as substitutes.

I think Laird was initially fine with the idea of a TMNT cartoon for kids. He liked that the franchise had become so popular and well known. But over time he came to resent the fact that the goofy kids cartoon became the most popular and well known version of TMNT, eclipsing the comic book. The 2003 cartoon (which was supervised by Peter Laird) was more or less his idea of what a TMNT show for kids should be.

Yeah. That's it.

Most of that, I was aware of in some form, though I didn't know he originally insisted that the Turtles be the only mutants.

Well, he got to tell his story the way he wanted with the 2003 series, at least. And even though it's clear he had issues with a lot of parts of the franchise (and seemed like he had a bit of a death grip on it) 2003 was a pretty good series all in all. Though it's ironic that it was 4Kids of all companies that did it. The monkey's paw must have lost a finger or something, cause that really should have blown up in all our faces....

<Remembers Fast Forward>

Well, maybe it did a little (I still kinda like Fast Forward too).

That being said, I'm glad the franchise is more free to explore all its media. Krang, Rocksteady, and Bebop are as much a part of it as Hun, Bishop, Venus, Draxum, or Big Mama.

They all deserve good stories.

Agreed. What drew me to the IDW comic was the way they mixed together bits from Mirage, Archie, 1987 and 2003, to create an Ultimate Universe. At its best I felt it was like a perfect fusion of what I love about the first two cartoons, which would be my ideal cartoon. We pretty much got a 2003-ish Shredder with Bebop and Rocksteady, which by itself is pretty wonderful. I would like to see more appearances of many of the characters introduced in Rise, either in a future animation or comic. The same goes for the revamped personalities of the Turtles seen in this show, because I find the changes quite refreshing, especially how they are so chummy with each other.

I'm curious if Laird didn't like the 87 show, why even let Fred Wolf handle it. Did he not get a preview or otherwise know how it would be handled?

Like I said, he was apparently fine with it early on. It wasn't how he would handle TMNT, but he went along with it because it helped to increase awareness of the brand, and get new, younger viewers into the franchise.

What he didn't count on was how huge the show would become. For many people, Fred Wolf TMNT became THE version of TMNT. That cartoon was what most people thought of when people thought of Ninja Turtles. And Laird hated that. At the time "Turtlemania" was at its height, Eastman and Laird were overseeing the thirteen part "City At War" storyline in the Mirage comic books. Which was the darkest, most ambitious, and most complex story they had done with TMNT up to that point. But it was largely overshadowed by the formulaic kiddie cartoon and the Jim Henson movies. Laird grew bitter.

Peter Laird tried doing comic books outside of TMNT, but none of them were successful. He would always be the Ninja Turtles guy. And Ninja Turtles would always be seen as a silly kids franchise.

Alright.

Season 2 done.

Man, that Hamato Ninpo was something.

I've so far only seen the clips available on Youtube. But yeah, that is some damn cool ninja-magic action. The fights in the movie are also great. While it is a pity that the movie doesn't include many of the characters from the show, it does make the movie more accessible for those of us who haven't seen all of Rise before. If the movie is a condensed version of the original plan for season 3, then I still hope to see the plan for season 4 realized somehow.

Just finished the Movie.

That was fun. Though even though Leo is supposed to be the leader, it still feels like Raph is running the show, or rather that Leo is more like the second in command until he steps up.

It'll be interesting to see if anything of this portrayal carries over to any future incarnation. Leo still being the leader while having a bit of an ego because he's that damned good could make for some interesting character beats.

I was thinking does anyone think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Adventures could use a character sheet? It could be good to help dispel some common misinformation about the series.

I know this is a cartoon thread, but I couldn't find any general or comic threads for the franchise?

Just saw the film. Good visuals bit the script feels under fleshed out.

I also really don't like the films politic.

The emotional arc of the Turtles is that they want to stop a criminal so they will be accepted by Humans. The turning point is When they fight to stop Superfly even though Humans hate them and then there reward in the narrative Is exactly what the Aesop of the film and April said they were wrong for pursuing and then the big shift Is the humans accepting the Turtles, but only BECAUSE they were fighting for them.

Superfly is also set up as This Killmonger style champion of the oppressed, so having him be this violent exterminate all humans type sits wrong with me because it fits a constant pattern of super hero films of the characters being against oppression being bad guys. Especially because they have Ice Cube voicing him and quoting anti-cop rap lyrics. Superfly also uses AAVE, plays rap, references rappers and has an AFRO, I don't even think he's just Black coded, he may actually be in-universe of African American heritage depending on how ooze works in this setting and if he has any Baxter DNA. So having him written like he was came off as an Angry Black Man stereotype, and the solution to the Turtles dilemna being "we're one of the good ones, see we beat up this violent radical" has this icky respectability politics/assimilationist undertones. Metaphorically it's like saying beating up Black Panthers will cure racism. TCRI, the actual Human evil of the film, gets treated as barely an afterthought, Splinter fights some goons and then they disappear from the plot until the sequel hook at the end

That plotline coupled with five non-Black writers writing a hip-hop heavy soundtrack is what lest me with the distaste.

Yeah, that's the general feeling I got too.