The Gun Thread

Tangentially related, but I'm fortunate enough to find several legal gun shooting ranges around my area.

Unfortunately, while there are plenty of ranges with varieties of pistols, I can't find a single place that offers anything other than that, like shotguns and rifles. XP

Also, Jesus, apparently Colt M1911 and its variants are surprisingly rare in my country's market. Like, come on, almost every range seems to have Desert Eagle, but how come M1911 is a rarity?! >:[

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

dRoy a lot of that is everyone wanting 9mm pistols because that's what "everyone" was using during the GWOT. Mp 5, most pistols etc.

Edited by TairaMai on Mar 6th 2024 at 6:32:33 AM

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

The 1911 is a uniquely American phenomenon and .45 ACP is an obsolescent cartridge ^* I'm right and you know it, fite me that basically saw no use outside of the US or people the US dumped a bunch of .45 ACP guns on.

But a lot of those rent a ranges sort of places chase after trends and right now that means a lot of tactical cool pistols or Glocks or whats in movies and video games.

As for not having rifles it's actually kind of a pain in the ass to make a rifle range for anything much larger than a .22, if it's indoors you need a pretty beefy backstop and if it's outdoors you still kinda need a pretty beefy berm and a lotta empty space.

Edited by LeGarcon on Mar 6th 2024 at 8:51:20 AM

Oh really when?

[Sad M1911 lover noises]

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

You'll probably have to find a skeet shooting range for shotguns.

That's strange, to think about it. I don't think it would be hard to find, considering the amount of military surplus. Hell, I remember finding one with 'US Army Property' while cleaning the armory when I was in the army.

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For people keeping guns for home defense use, what is the concept of operations? How do you know there's an intruder early enough to take your gun from where it is locked up? Like, if the intruder is already in your house, you have less than a minute to grab a gun. I don't think it would be wise to keep a loaded gun within reach at all times, even when sleeping.

"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow

Notionally, the idea is that the intruder is probably robbing the place, rather than zeroing in on the bedroom to kill the homeowner. So, in theory, you have time to hear them knocking around in your living room or kitchen trying to steal a TV set or your silverware, and hopefully are ready to wake up and arm yourself.

From here you get into a whole debate about the rules of engagement/legal theories for self defense in the home which honestly probably rapidly go beyond the scope of this thread. The relevant laws applying to that topic vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction within the US, even in relatively gun-friendly states.

All this, of course, assumes that in your startled half-asleep state, you did actually hear an intruder and not something else that got your fight-or-flight amped up.

...Y'know, not being an American, I never actually thought about this.

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

Birdshot will penetrate multiple layers of sheetrock at typical indoor range (0-10m) and remain lethal on the other side. It’s a terrible pick for home defense because the spread of the pellets make it much harder to account for everything that’s in your line of fire.

They should have sent a poet.

The ideal weapon for home-defense is the grenade launcher. Since you're in the blast radius, there's little chance you'll have to show up for court for whatever happens next.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Mar 7th 2024 at 12:01:30 PM

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"

That's true but hollowpoints don't expand or deform reliably passing through drywall and are still lethal out to longer distances and birdshot is definitely better than buckshot.

Using firearms for home defense is always dangerous to your neighbors, mitigation is the name of the game

Edited by LeGarcon on Mar 7th 2024 at 8:52:13 AM

Oh really when?

Hollowpoints aren’t supposed to deform in walls, they’re supposed to deform in people. Most modern hollowpoint ammo is specifically designed not to deform when passing through barriers. The deformation is a mechanism for causing greater damage to a target, not something that’s supposed to slow the round down.

Consider the spread of birdshot vs. buckshot. At 10m, where birdshot still has enough energy to penetrate sheetrock, it will have spread out to about a 9 inch group. That doesn’t seem like a lot but when you factor in ricochets and pellets being sent off course when they hit a wall you suddenly have a huge cone of potential danger. Buckshot will have spread to about a 3 inch group at that range, and thanks to the increased mass of each pellet it’ll be more likely to stay on course.

They should have sent a poet.

I think people are confusing hollow points with frangible rounds.

I didn't mistype, hollow points are the standard for self defense and are the best comparison.

Edited by LeGarcon on Mar 7th 2024 at 4:51:41 AM

Oh really when?

I guess maybe I’m not understanding what you mean when you say “hollowpoints don't expand or deform reliably passing through drywall and are still lethal out to longer distances”.

If a hollowpoint round was reliably expanding in drywall, that would mean there’s a problem with the design.

The fundamental issue with the argument that birdshot is better for home defense is that it’s much harder to account for where everything that leaves the barrel is going with birdshot. Like Tuefel said, anything that will stop a person will also pass through a wall, so you may as well minimize the lethal radius on the other side of that wall.

They should have sent a poet.

Hollowpoints are ostensibly the round you would have in your pistol for self defense and are known for expanding and expending all their energy on hitting the target preventing over penetration but that does not mean they're "safe" and they will still absolutely remain lethal projectiles after passing through the walls of your home.

When I hear people sell hollowpoints for self defense the alleged lack of overpenetration is an aspect they mention a lot and I think that gives people some incorrect ideas.

As for the birdshot I think this also plays into different usecases again, I live in a somewhat suburban area with a decent amount of distance between my house and my neighbor's house.

I'd be very surprised if birdshot maintained the same kind of velocity and lethality as a 9mm round would after going my drywall, the distance between our houses, and then his drywall.

If I was living in an apartment or even if our houses were closer together I'd probably agree with you and say a handgun might be the safer option.

Edited by LeGarcon on Mar 7th 2024 at 6:58:31 AM

Oh really when?

I’m not sure why we’re even talking about hollowpoints here. You originally stated that hollowpoints don’t expand reliably when they hit drywall. The purpose of hollowpoint ammunition is not to prevent over-penetration, that’s what frangible ammunition is for. Modern hollowpoint ammo is specifically designed to not expand when hitting a barrier, only when hitting a person. The purpose of the expansion is to create a larger wound channel for increased lethality. There’s no reason a hollowpoint should expand when hitting drywall, can you clarify what you meant by that?

This isn’t really a “different use cases” situation. If you live in a suburban area you have even less reason to choose birdshot as a defensive ammunition. Inside your house all 3 of the ammo types we’re talking about will penetrate walls and cause serious to lethal injuries to anyone on the other side. None of the 3 ammo types we’re talking about will be a real danger to the people in the next house over, assuming typical suburban spacing and fencing. Given that, would you rather have a lethal cone inside your house 12 inches wide with dozens of ricochets, or an inch wide?

As an aside, at my place of work I have unfortunately seen firsthand a number of times what happens to someone struck by birdshot fired through a wall. I can think of at least one of those occasions where the person probably wouldn’t have been hit had the shooter used a different round. Don’t use birdshot for home defense.

They should have sent a poet.

Reliably is the wrong word, cannot be expected to expend their energy is a more correct one.

And yes,

That is correct.

But that is not how they are advertised to novice gun owners or to first time buyers or even discussed as much in most CCW courses. It's a common misconception that's propagated by advertisement.

I have heard countless times that hollowpoints are safe because they don't overpenetrate by people of all kinds, gun store owners, NRA affiliated instructors, common shooters, and even police officers.

Never once has anyone ever uttered the true fact that hollowpoints go through drywall easily.

Oh really when?

Again, why are we talking about hollow points? Whether or not they penetrate drywall is essentially irrelevant to whether or not birdshot is good for home defense. (It’s not)

They should have sent a poet.

Because you keep asking about them

Oh really when?

It's relevant because we're talking about the risks of overpenetration of walls in houses, and hollowpoints are in fact a type of ammunition that many homeowners (in the US) may have access to. If someone brought up whether or not a 127×680mmR anti-aircraft shell would overpenetrate household drywall, that would probably not be relevant or helpful to the discussion (for the record, assuming you work out a way to fire such a shell, it will absolutely penetrate drywall. Probably all the drywall in a shallow arc a few thousand meters long in the direction you fired.)

But what if we used canister shot instead?

Edited by Imca on Mar 8th 2024 at 8:54:29 PM

Glaser safety slug should be the go-to for those of us living in your typical US cheap drywall crapshack. These ARE stopped by drywall - they are even used by Sky Marshals because they won't punch through the hull of an airliner.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be on The First 48

Ah yes, canister, for when a heavy cruiser needs to repel a boarding party

When you want the crime-scene team to spend at least a week collecting the remains of your attempted burglar.

Some interesting tidbits about the Vietnam War.

After the Americans retreated from the country, they left enough weapons behind for a literal army. With the defeat of South Vietnam, the Vietnam's People Army took over a huge treasure trove worth of weapons.

Some of the caches fell into the black markets and found themselves in the hands of criminals, rebels, and revolutionaries. The Karen rebels in Myanmar mainly use M16, which is suspected to come from Uncle Sam's leftovers.

A huge quantity of M16 are still being used by the southern VPA militia as their main rifle. In fact, they are more common than the Soviet rifles. Even though Vietnam does produce 5.56 ammo, the militia still has plenty of made-in-USA ammo to spare.

Where there's life, there's hope.