I still think Maou & Kyousuke's relation is different in each route. (And I know I said I'd go back and check the facts revealed, but this thing was longer than I remembered near the beginning, so it got rather tiring. :<)
A thought, did Kyousuke ever get around to paying off the debt in chapter 5? Or did Gonzou's death nullify it?
He didn't pay it.
Then was it nullified or is Kyousuke going to have to go back to paying up once he gets out of prison?
Not Actually Indie
It's possible that whoever is the head of the family now will come to collect eventually, but after a probably messy succession and the intervening years there might not be anyone left who cares.
...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
I think it's probably been forgotten about. Perhaps it was a debt to Gonzou himself.
Dunno why people can't appreciate the side routes.
In fact the first route which everyone seems to hate was the best side route, in my opinion. He ends up as someone who doesn't stop believing in the importance of money, and yet frees himself from being a slave to money. For the first time in his life, he is simultaneously bearing the weight of "money", as well as not letting it stop him from living the life he really wants. It's a different sort of character development to the main route, and yet I found it great. Also on Miwa Tsubaki being boring, I really didn't think so. The plot regarding her personality reminded me a lot of Liar Game's Nao.
For all you guys who couldn't appreciate it, I'm gunna call you out on either not reading it carefully, or being the type who can only appreciate really obvious, flashy literature. (Which isn't a bad thing in my opinion, I'm just countering your views so people don't skip past the side-routes like you suggest)
Actually, I like main route the least on account of massive bailouts (identity of Maou -cough- mortal enemy romance apparently too difficult for Looseboy to write -cough-), massive plotholes and close to no believable character development.
Even Mizuha's (whose character development and plot actually ran PARALLEL to Kyousuke) route led to a more interesting end-result Kyousuke than main route Kyousuke.
======================================================
[Note: Regarding Maou's identity, I'm pretty sure it was meant to be Kyousuke all along, until at the very in they added Kyouhei and peppered in little bits throughout the common route. Re-reading G線上 to see when exactly they mention the death of Haru's mother, when exactly they mention when it happened, and all the other little things that made it impossible for Maou to be Kyousuke. Well, they're all really, really late, and basically had no connection to the rest of the plot at the time. Really, Haru's revenge could have easily been from a 3 year old murder （3 years qualifies for both 何年 and 数年） by random alley stabbing or car bombing. That would have been more plausible too. Assuming Kyousuke was Maou, and thus was at least as intelligent and capable as Haru, as a 16 year old with Yakuza links, such a thing wouldn't actually be that difficult to set up. On the other hand, there's all sorts of stuff that makes no sense assuming Maou is Kyouhei. This isn't even the really obvious plotholes, I'm talking about the writing itself.
For example: "My other half. When I, ‘Maou’, am not acting openly, ‘Azai’ Kyousuke works to support me." 「我が、半身。 魔王"であるおれが表立って活動していないとき、浅井の京介はおれに加担するように動いているようだ。」
Needless to say, brothers with a 10 year age gap, estranged for that long as well, would not call each other "other halves", much less a brother who hates the other with a passion. Moreover, assuming we leave this "other half" thing aside, though the Azai corporation is presently working for Sannou, it would be a mega huge stretch to call it "working to support" Kyouhei, seeing as both Sannou and the Azai corporation are his enemies.
This is one of many, many examples in the writing that point to Kyouhei being hastily added in during the writing of the final route.
Also, regarding that 26(?) year old nerdy Game Theorist scene, no matter how good his make-up is I refuse to believe that a 30 year old dude (Kyouhei) would be able to pull off looking that much younger than him. When you're always exposed to people of your own age group, it makes it really easy to tell the age (and I'm East Asian, and I'm telling you guys, yes, we can tell each other apart and tell each others rough age based on appearance)]
edited 6th Dec '13 8:04:55 AM by JetpackDragon
"You don't agree with my opinion, so your taste must be shit."
Thanks for the subtly phrased arguments.
Also, you accuse us of not paying enough attention but were actually surprised by the identity of Maou?
@Arha
Please, you don't have to get all defensive about it. I don't necessarily think that people who can only appreciate flashy things are bad. Some of my best friends only like action movies. Moreover my taste in music is very flashy; I can't stand country music and slow stuff at all. If you have a complex about it or something, I'm sorry for being so blunt about it.
I could understand if any one of you listed at least a single merit of the route, and then went on about how all the demerits completely outweighed it, but reading through the 17 pages here all I see are people talking about how dull they are or how they basically just skim-read it. What conclusion could I come to except that most of you guys didn't read it carefully (due to having no interest in Tsubaki)?
Um, I don't see what you mean. If you pay attention to everything before Haru's route, you'll notice there's basically no way for Maou to be Kyouhei. I even checked the Japanese raws for each one of those weird lines to make sure they weren't due to translation. How is that not reading carefully?
For example once I thought I had found an example of the writing proving it couldn't be Kyouhei ("I am no longer that child" or something to that effect, but actually the Japanese word was more like "naive greenhorn" or "helpless little brat" etc. so that couldn't serve as proof)
Did you even read what I posted, or did you just get offended and stop reading? :/
edited 6th Dec '13 4:27:52 PM by JetpackDragon
Yes, it is definitely a compliment to be told that you can't understand complex stories. Your comment was obviously dismissive and insulting, now you are being condescending. Further, if you say you have read through all seventeen pages yet seen no support for the sideroutes at all, you must have skimmed them. I suggest you pay more attention in the future.
Here, let's put some obvious reasons why Maou couldn't have been Kyousuke. Usami's mother has been dead for a considerable amount of time. Kyousuke is too young to have killed her. He could not have done it recently because he has been under the thumb of Gonzou as well as needing to maintain a proper image in school, so no long unexplained absences. He could not have acquired the skills he has at his age: He had absolutely no resources during the time he would have been in middle school and instead was starving with that uncle of his. That gives him only a few years to learn, what, five languages? as well as police policy and format. He knows how to construct explosives and how to maneuver.
Further, consider the logical points against it: Maou has massive amounts of funds, yet doesn't use them to save his mother? How could Kyousuke have the contacts necessary to purchase better drugs than Gonzou sells? Especially without Gonzou knowing about it? If Kyousuke is so concerned about his father, why does he never really bother to even think about the guy rather than worry about his mother?
Also, it's far too obvious to have Maou and Kyousuke be the same person. There is absolutely no dramatic payoff for revealing that, even if you take the view that it wasn't supposed to be secret. For there to be value in a reveal like that, other characters would need to be surprised.
Sorry for the massive wall of text. It's really hard to make it orderly without spoiler tags, italics, bold and quotations. :/
Whilst I understand the onus is on me, the speaker, to avoid offending anyone, that doesn't mean I can just happily stomach being made out to be some aggressor. I've already apologised and clarified what I meant in my first post, but you're just continuing to try and put words in my mouth and make out out to be some kind of villain. Do you enjoy it that much? Playing the victim, and acting like you're on the side of justice. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say it was a compliment, merely that I didn't think it would be an insult. Furthermore, I never said you couldn't understand complex stories, merely that you didn't enjoy subtle stories. There's quite a large difference, and if you're getting it mixed up I suspect it's because you enjoy being offended and thus are finding things to get incensed about.
※"Usami's mother has been dead for a considerable amount of time."
Like I said, assuming he's at least as capable as Usami, as a 16 year old this would not have been difficult to arrange. I'm really suspecting that you didn't read my post. They only mention how long ago it was in Haru's route, and it could have easily been 3 years whilst changing nothing in ALL THE PLOT LEADING UP TO HARU'S ROUTE. (Sorry about the upper case, can't find the "bold" option here.)
※"He could not have done it recently because he has been under the thumb of Gonzou as well as needing to maintain a proper image in school, so no long unexplained absences."
Gonzou is not keeping him under surveillance. The "under the thumb" thing is primarily psychological. If you'll notice, he spends quite a bit of time messing around. TIME SPENT PLOTTING WOULD BE ASSUMED BY SCHOOL FRIENDS TO BE NANPA AND PLAYING WITH WOMEN. TIME SPENT PLOTTING WOULD BE ASSUMED BY YAKUZA TIME TO BE PLAYING WITH FRIENDS. Despite how busy Kyousuke makes himself out to be, that's only on really busy days. He has plenty of days where he's so free he can just go shop for cds or stay back at school until 8pm or something to play a stupid prank. His classmates have no idea why he's always speeding out of class either (they assume he's fucking women).
Moreover, Maou is prone to using other people to do his dirty work. Thus, minimal absences, certainly not enough to raise suspicion nor require explanation. After all, for all the story makes Gonzou out to be amazing, he is not omnipresent. Even his network of thugs trying their best to catch that weird nationalist guy had so much trouble. He does not have an Echelon system or anything. He's just a really talented Yakuza. A talented (and more courageous) Kyousuke would be able to avoid his eyes.
※"He could not have acquired the skills he has at his age: He had absolutely no resources during the time he would have been in middle school and instead was starving with that uncle of his."
3 years ago he was already with Gonzou, actually.
※"That gives him only a few years to learn, what, five languages? as well as police policy and format. He knows how to construct explosives and how to maneuver. "
He doesn't need 5 languages. I think I've mentioned this before, buｔ all this terrorist crap is only "revealed" in Usami's route. When I say Maou was written to be Kyousuke in the beginning, that necessarily voids everything "revealed" in Haru's route. If it's explosives, not that difficult really. Maou is AT LEAST as capable as Usami.
※"He could not have acquired the skills he has at his age."
Please, Usami the violinist has been doing investigative work foｒ at least a few years. She is currently 17 years of age. Go figure. Tokita Yuki, currently 17~ish years of age, master interrogator. Go figure.
※"Maou has massive amounts of funds, yet doesn't use them to save his mother? " I had considered this of course. There are reasons why I believe this is consistent.
1) In people with DID, alters generally have different "purposes" "Azai Kyousuke" is concerned with saving his mother, "Maou" is concerned with revenge on their wrongdoers. Hence Maou's "other half" supports him.
2) Maou is only shown to have massive funds within the last year, due to his work with Sannou You do not need massive funds to set up a stabbing or a car bombing (related to Mishima Kaoru's death)
3) By the time he had massive funds (within the last year), even paying back their debt would not free "Azai Kyousuke" and his mother from Gonzou. Just by paying back the tiny "￥200,000,000", do you think a person like Azai Gonzou would just let him go? Maou exists to get rid of Gonzou and Sannou, and free both Kyousuke and his mother for real.
※"There is absolutely no dramatic payoff for revealing that, even if you take the view that it wasn't supposed to be secret. For there to be value in a reveal like that, other characters would need to be surprised."
UNTRUE. You clearly don't appreciate DRAMATIC IRONY. If written well enough, the dramatic climax would have been the love between mortal enemies (Kyousuke and Haru) and their struggle to overcome their hatred for each other. Another possibility being that they both die together. Actually, there's many, many possibilities when it's mortal enemy romance. I suspect that Looseboy just found it too hard to write well, so instead he copped out and created "Kyouhei".
With Kyouhei in existence, Kyousuke is redeemable, romance with Haru is infinitely easier to write, and the masses are all happy. Happy or not, this does not stop it being a massive copout.
The audience knowing Kyousuke was Maou all along builds up massive anticipation for how the Haru route would go. How will this strange love/hate relationship between two alters and a girl turn out? Instead, what we get is massive copout.
edited 6th Dec '13 6:23:07 PM by JetpackDragon
Pursuing whether or not you insulted me is kinda pointless, but you really were being awfully condescending.
- What evidence do you have that he is as capable as Usami? Kyousuke never displays her level of competence unless you start from the assumption that Kyousuke is Maou. Also, three years ago he would not have had any resources. Usami has none either, all she has is that she knows a girl who acts like a police profiler. Also, Usami has a personal grudge against Maou and indicates that she met him. When has Kyousuke had the chance to travel unaccompanied and unsupervised? Or had the time to personally run that brothel/criminal organization? Kyousuke did not have the time to do these things, nor has he displayed the ability to do so.
- Gonzou may not watch Kyousuke like a hawk, but he would surely notice if Kyousuke dared leave the city. And he would have to do that. Putting aside that Usami's mother died in Russia, even if she died in Japan it would certainly not have been in Kyousuke's hometown. If she had, Usami would not have needed to come there. Gonzou doesn't need to know where Kyousuke went, he just needs to know that he's gone. If Kyousuke were to be gone for two days and Gonzou says "Hey, Kyousuke, be here in twenty minutes to discuss the turf disagreements with the rival yakuza" then Kyousuke would be caught right there. Kyousuke cannot safely and freely leave town to pursue his agenda, but Maou must have been able to.
- Three years is not enough time to run Gonzou's business, go to school, learn four other languages, learn police code and profiling strategies, establish a second identity that a corporation, learn how to snipe, get in contact with his father, run a drug empire, establish a mercenary group and tons of other things. Even the real Maou took much longer than that while having a less busy schedule and Maou is smarter than Kyousuke. Even if you put aside learning all those languages, he at least knows English and some German as well as everything else I've mentioned. All those are skills he displays in other routes.
- Usami is not seventeen. Kyousuke is nineteen going on twenty and she's approximately the same age. That gives her six years and far less skills to pick up. Also, Yuki is explicitly not a master and sacrificed her entire childhood pursuing criminal psychology. She's good, but she's not an actual profiler.
- That money Maou has did not appear overnight. He has a clearly established reputation. He had a massive pile of money at his disposal when talking to Yuki.
- No, see, for there to be dramatic irony, Usami would have to be oblivious to the idea that Kyousuke could be Maou. She's not. Gonzou explicitly asks her to keep an eye on him. It wouldn't come as a surprise to her. If it doesn't come as a surprise to the audience or characters, then why pretend it's a secret?
Just because you don't like the reveal doesn't mean there was no foreshadowing. You may not have liked the direction the story took, but that's just your taste. Just because you don't like how a story developed does not mean it was bad writing.
In my country, instead of learning the English language through grammar, we are instead forced to spend 6 years learning nothing but English literature. I will admit that literature and its interpretation is highly subjective. More often than not, the teachers at my school would give conflicting views. However, I have confidence that all of them would say that the Usami route is filled with contrived and lazy writing (read: BAD WRITING). I will go on to explain why I believe it was lazy and contrived below.
BTW, um, I actually enjoyed Haru's route. The epilogue with the child really got me. I just enjoyed it the least out of all the routes. Bad writing didn't stop it from being enjoyable. Moreover I don't mean it was absolutely bad; it was still way better than stuff like Wanko & Kurasou etc., just relative to the other routes, and relative to 車輪の国、向日葵の少女.
I finished re-reading the entire game, with http://tlwiki.org/index.php?title=The_Devil_on_G-String:g48.ks
etc. as a guide for the Japanese raws. The whole purpose of re-reading was to see if there was any indication of Kyouhei before the Usami route, or any of the stuff that made it impossible for it to be Kyousuke.
There was not.
On the other hand, there is plenty of stuff making it so that Kyouhei existing made no sense. Had I known I'd get into such a long discussion here, I would have written it all down. I left an example in my very first post here, but that's really the only one I can remember by memory since it was really early in the game.
But yeah, if you'd actually open your mind a bit and re-read the game like I did, with the Japanese raws with you, you'd realise all the stuff Maou says reflects Kyousuke's past and background. Almost none of the stuff Maou says would be credible coming from a genius with a great upbringing for 20 years, and who then went on to participate in mercenary work. All the stuff related to money, trusting people etc. is uniquely Kyousuke. There are many other things in Maou's internal monologues etc. that completely clash with Kyouhei as a character.
Again, my hypothesis is that the story was "written with Kyousuke as Maou in mind, but then altered shortly before Haru's route for the sake of convenience".
"1. What evidence do you have that he is as capable as Usami? Kyousuke never displays her level of competence unless you start from the assumption that Kyousuke is Maou. Also, three years ago he would not have had any resources. Usami has none either, all she has is that she knows a girl who acts like a police profiler. Also, Usami has a personal grudge against Maou and indicates that she met him. When has Kyousuke had the chance to travel unaccompanied and unsupervised? Or had the time to personally run that brothel/criminal organization? Kyousuke did not have the time to do these things, nor has he displayed the ability to do so."
Actually, people with DID have shown that some of their alters are more skilled in certain areas than others. Certainly, we must start from the assumption that Kyousuke is Maou. I think I told you, but everything I'm writing is under the assumption that Looseboy copped out. There is no reason why Kyouhei and Haru can be written to be geniuses, but when Kyousuke is it's too unrealistic. Usami HAS NOT INDICATED THAT SHE HAS MET HIM. I WAS ON THE LOOKOUT FOR ANY SUCH INDICATION DURING MY RE-READ. She only indicates that she knows his modus operandi, and that she has been personally victimised by him, and has been tracking him for years.
Kyousuke has also shown no indication of being incapable. Gonzou is fearsome, and yet Kyousuke is becoming known as his right-hand man. Moreover, during all of Usami's explanations, he comes to a conclusion in the opposite direction of the truth; while alters have different short-term goals, they roughly desire the same thing. It is entirely plausible that Kyousuke would not come to the conclusion he might usually, if he was subconsciously protecting Maou's schemes.
"2. Gonzou may not watch Kyousuke like a hawk, but he would surely notice if Kyousuke dared leave the city. And he would have to do that. Putting aside that Usami's mother died in Russia, even if she died in Japan it would certainly not have been in Kyousuke's hometown. If she had, Usami would not have needed to come there. Gonzou doesn't need to know where Kyousuke went, he just needs to know that he's gone. If Kyousuke were to be gone for two days and Gonzou says "Hey, Kyousuke, be here in twenty minutes to discuss the turf disagreements with the rival yakuza" then Kyousuke would be caught right there. Kyousuke cannot safely and freely leave town to pursue his agenda, but Maou must have been able to."
Again, unnecessary to personally kill the mother. The Russia thing is void, as revealed in Usami's route. Even if she was killed in Tokyo (most likely place, as it is the capital city of Japan), it would have been rather easy to find someone else to do it. Even I could arrange a murder in my country's capital (though as I'm entirely incapable, I'd no doubt get caught). Thus, all arguments about Kyousuke leaving are entirely void. Besides, you've read the story too. How often does Maou actually personally commit the crime? Leaving aside not being able to leave the city, doing it personally is much too risky. You pay someone else to do it. You trick some nationalist militant into doing it. You set up Kaoru so that she becomes the enemy of some gang. There are many ways you could do it without leaving the city, and in fact not leaving would be better. It means there are less links to you.
"3. Three years is not enough time to run Gonzou's business, go to school, learn four other languages, learn police code and profiling strategies, establish a second identity that a corporation, learn how to snipe, get in contact with his father, run a drug empire, establish a mercenary group and tons of other things. Even the real Maou took much longer than that while having a less busy schedule and Maou is smarter than Kyousuke. Even if you put aside learning all those languages, he at least knows English and some German as well as everything else I've mentioned. All those are skills he displays in other routes."
Um, again you mention 4 other languages, but that's basically near the very end of the common route. If I were writing a story, I'd be planning Haru's route before it started of course. Around the time Mizuha's route is finishing, I'd realise "Oh shit. Writing arch-enemy romance is too hard. Let's find a way to cop outta this." Thus, voided. I'll remind you again, but I just read the entire game again this week, and with the Japanese raws as a guide too. Uhm, English only. No German appears in the original Japanese. And very limited English, at that. pondr or whoever added in the German because he thought it'd sound cooler.
For example, when they say "This devil, this maou, this alderking (whatever it is in German)" or something like that, the Japanese is completely different. It just says "maou".
As for drug empire, there is no such thing. He just has a minor drug operation going with some low level thugs, that happens to have higher quality cocaine than the Azai corporation. Moreover Kyousuke has contact with the people who do the drug business. Gonzou suspects Kyousuke of being Maou, because he knows that Kyousuke has the contacts and resources to do it (provided he was less of a wimp).
Establishing a second identity requires time? No it doesn't. I rock up one day to people I don't know, and say "Hi, I'm Tim". I continue associating with them for the next year as "Tim". 2nd identity established! D:
No mention of mercenaries until the end of Mizuha's route, with all the Yuki business. Mercenaries, thus void.
The sniping is in Haru's route. Please refer to what my hypothesis states. Sniping, thus void.
"All those are skills he displays in other routes." Are you sure you've been reading the same game as me? The two examples above are basically Haru's route. The sniping, actually, is definitely Haru's route.
"4. Usami is not seventeen. Kyousuke is nineteen going on twenty and she's approximately the same age. That gives her six years and far less skills to pick up. Also, Yuki is explicitly not a master and sacrificed her entire childhood pursuing criminal psychology. She's good, but she's not an actual profiler." Usami could be seventeen. They never explicitly mention her age until the Usami route. I assumed 17 for your convenience, but since I void everything in Haru's route (my hypothesis being that basically he started writing with Maou as Kyousuke, then copped out and changed the story) she could be 15, 19, 23 even.
One other thing I found strange was that in Haru's route they mentioned that she was a minor (implying Kyousuke was not a minor). However the age of majority is 20 in Japan, meaning that Kyousuke could not be 19.
"5. That money Maou has did not appear overnight. He has a clearly established reputation. He had a massive pile of money at his disposal when talking to Yuki." Yuki route is near the end. However, even assuming that isn't void, he gained a lot of money working for Sannou. This is Sannou; so powerful that no corporation in Tomanbetsushi could work if it was blacklisted. Moreover he helped bring Sannou incredible prosperity. That pile of money suddenly isn't that big a deal.
"6. No, see, for there to be dramatic irony, Usami would have to be oblivious to the idea that Kyousuke could be Maou. She's not. Gonzou explicitly asks her to keep an eye on him. It wouldn't come as a surprise to her. If it doesn't come as a surprise to the audience or characters, then why pretend it's a secret? " Of course Usami starts off suspecting Kyousuke to be Maou, because it'd be retarded if she didn't. There's dramatic irony in the fact that we know Kyousuke to be Maou, while we watch Usami slowly trust Kyousuke (and fall in love again etc. etc.). There is dramatic irony everywhere, because all the characters and heroines grow to trust and love Kyousuke (while we as the audience know that he is actually their tormentor, or at least an alter of the tormenter).
There is also dramatic irony in the fact that we, as an audience, are aware this is an eroge.
i.e. there will be a Haru route i.e. there will be Kyousuke/Maou X Haru romance i.e. we're all going "omg" and wondering how this will play out when she realises the guy she has a route with (cough, loves) is actually the enemy she's been searching for all these years
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/irony
(also dramatic or tragic irony) a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character’s words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character.
We are aware of the significance of everyone trusting Kyousuke, and the eventual progression towards the Maou X Usami showdown. However the characters themselves (even Kyousuke) is not fully aware of the seriousness of this.
"Just because you don't like the reveal doesn't mean there was no foreshadowing. You may not have liked the direction the story took, but that's just your taste. Just because you don't like how a story developed does not mean it was bad writing."
Um, no buddy. I'm not saying there was no foreshadowing because I disliked the reveal. I DISLIKED THE REVEAL BECAUSE THERE WAS NO FORESHADOWING.
Whether or not I think something is good literature is based on my own tastes and understanding of good literature. This understanding is based on 6 years of schooling, on only literature, and no actual English language study. It's because it was bad writing, that I disliked how the story developed. I'm not sure what you've learned in school, but it's clearly different to what I did.
Lazy and contrived.
Instead of writing the harder way, instead he takes the easy way out and creates "Kyouhei", turning everything before that into an incredibly contrived red herring. Ignoring the fact that Maou magically stops his plan every time Kyousuke ends up with a girl besides Haru, there are other problems with Kyouhei as a character.
He supposedly hates Kyousuke, because Kyousuke failed in protecting his mother. Something like "Oh, I'm gunna go save our father so I'll leave the massive debt and Yakuza for my 13 year old brother to deal with." Granted, he states that he didn't think the loan sharks would go that far, but if he understands this, then he would actually have to be a lot less angry at Kyousuke. Anyway, it's just lazy writing.
Contrary to what you said, there are almost NO INDICATIONS of another person possibly being Maou; there's no foreshadowing until very late into the game. I'm not sure if you're making stuff up, but I specifically re-read the game to look out for stuff like this, and on the contrary found all sorts of stuff in Maou's internal monologues that is entirely inconsistent with Kyouhei as a character.
I can understand dressing up like Kyousuke etc. to fool others, but going as far as acting like Kyousuke, and pretending to be Kyousuke's alter ego in his inner thoughts? Nope, buddy. Just nope.
When a story runs away from having to resolve difficult questions, and instead takes the easy way out, in the process:
☆ hastily adding in a character with an inconsistent personality
☆ making everything established earlier an inconsistent, unbelievable and contrived red herring
☆ biting itself in the arse due to the newly appeared massive plotholes
in Sydney, or at least in the selective school I went to, we call that BAD WRITING.
And don't accuse me of being an Australian supremacist or anything stupid like that. I just keep mentioning my background to basically say that "Literature is subjective, and this is where I learned it. You may not agree with what I'm saying, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong. We just have different views due to different schooling in literature"
edited 6th Dec '13 7:31:06 PM by JetpackDragon
There's a photo of Kyouhei with Kyousuke and their mother. I believe Kyousuke also mentions in passing that his brother died in a terrorist attack and his sister died in infancy.
First, DID is not even conclusively proven to exist last I checked. Second, can knowledge appear out of nowhere. Even if Maou was a separate personality that learned three times as fast as Kyousuke there is still not enough time. Remember, Kyousuke spends eight~ hours a day in school, presumably several hours a day doing Gonzou's stuff and sleeps presumably six to ten hours a day. Let's say eight. That's a good 18-20 hours of his day accounted for right there.
His personal presence is probably required because why would a hired thug mention the name of their boss in front of a survivor? A survivor who was only spared on Maou's whim despite being part of the target of the attack in the first place. Also, she has a personal grudge against a specific individual. Why would an assassin leave witnesses? It's not enough that Kaoru died, she died and Usami knew who was responsible.
Kyousuke is nineteen. This is stated explicitly by Whatsisface the green haired jerk.
Where did he get that money? Where did he get the time to do everything? How did he even got hired by Sannou without a reputation and money already?
You're ignoring that Gonzou and Usami clearly knew Kyousuke could be Maou. Thus, the characters know the full significance.
Look, I get that you wanted a Maou/Usami romance. Drama and all. It's just that the story was never building towards that. Your sense of betrayal is unwarranted.
Finally, you seem to be assuming that this is a Fair-Play Whodunnit. Guessing that Maou is Kyouhei is a pretty odd conclusion to reach (though I did guess it) but that doesn't really matter. All that matters it that the story made the Kyousuke/Maou connection way too obvious while at the same time subtly making it impossible to actually be true.
Sorry, I've addressed some of your points here in the earlier post. I was editing :/
"There's a photo of Kyouhei with Kyousuke and their mother. I believe Kyousuke also mentions in passing that his brother died in a terrorist attack and his sister died in infancy."
Uhm, that photo could actually have been his father. Moreover, he mentions his siblings super late in the game. Before that, it's brief mentions of his father, with mentions of his mother. Taking a photo of your father having a coffee before heading off to work, while your mother cooks breakfast is not all that strange.
"First, DID is not even conclusively proven to exist last I checked." If we're going to be like that, Kyousuke's retarded memory illness is actually even less likely to exist.
"Second, can knowledge appear out of nowhere. Even if Maou was a separate personality that learned three times as fast as Kyousuke there is still not enough time. Remember, Kyousuke spends eight~ hours a day in school, presumably several hours a day doing Gonzou's stuff and sleeps presumably six to ten hours a day. Let's say eight. That's a good 18-20 hours of his day accounted for right there." True, but I'm telling you that I'm voiding all the hyper skills he has in Haru's route. Moreover, if you'll note, he has massive lapses of time where he has no idea what he was doing. The only skills he's really shown are a car bombing, knowledge of psychology (which you can pick up anywhere, really) and criminal ways to avoid detection. Considering his ambition, yakuza background, innate talent and internet access, would not be implausible to assume he could learn all these in three years. One would be enough. He also has had 2 years to refine it. Kyousuke is a fast learner.
"His personal presence is probably required because why would a hired thug mention the name of their boss in front of a survivor? A survivor who was only spared on Maou's whim despite being part of the target of the attack in the first place. Also, she has a personal grudge against a specific individual. Why would an assassin leave witnesses? It's not enough that Kaoru died, she died and Usami knew who was responsible."
Let's say my purpose is vengeance, rather than money. How hard is it to tell the thug to leave a note on Haru's door that reads "I'm Maou. Come find me, Hero" for example? You're not separating the end-stuff Haru route from the rest of the story. You assume that Haru was even there when her mother died, when that's a plot point that only appears in her route.
IT'S MUCH MORE LIKELY THAT Haru's mother died somewhere out of sight (noone commits murder in the open), and then Haru was sent a taunting letter or email afterwards.
"Kyousuke is nineteen. This is stated explicitly by Whatsisface the green haired jerk." I know he's 19. That why I said it was strange that in Haru's route they acted as though whilst Haru was a minor, he wasn't. They're both technically speaking below the Japanese age of majority.
"Where did he get that money? Where did he get the time to do everything? How did he even got hired by Sannou without a reputation and money already?"
I don't know, but it's equally unlikely for Kyouhei. Do you think a company is going to just take the advice of an international terrorist out of the blue? Kyouhei has a reputation as a TERRORIST and MERCENARY, not as a businessman. Maou, whoever he is, is capable enough to come up with a means. I'm incapable, and not a writer either, so I couldn't give you a way.
"You're ignoring that Gonzou and Usami clearly knew Kyousuke could be Maou. Thus, the characters know the full significance. Look, I get that you wanted a Maou/Usami romance. Drama and all. It's just that the story was never building towards that. Your sense of betrayal is unwarranted."
Um, did you read at all? Yes, they both suspected Kyousuke could be Maou. However, we the audience see Haru slowly trusting Kyousuke more and more, whilst we are still aware he is still Maou. Additionally, Haru and Gonzou aside, Tsubaki, Kanon and Mizuha did not really suspect him. Tsubaki did note once that the voice reminded her, but that was the only instance ever.
Actually, yes, the story was building towards that. I keep suspecting you've been reading a different story to me. Looseboy throws out difficult and complicated drama out the window in exchange for explosions and gang rapes. Real good writing. If you think that introducing massive plotholes and explosions, while throwing all the previous battle of wits + drama out is better, then like I said, I believe you are the type that prefers flashy stuff over slow subtle stuff. Explosions + 男の花道 (watch?v=iY-5pxW3t00) playing in the background has probably blinded you to other possibilities.
"Finally, you seem to be assuming that this is a Fair Play Whodunnit. Guessing that Maou is Kyouhei is a pretty odd conclusion to reach (though I did guess it) but that doesn't really matter. All that matters it that the story made the Kyousuke/Maou connection way too obvious while at the same time subtly making it impossible to actually be true."
Um, like I've said about 15 times already, I re-read the story to see if there's anything disqualifying Kyousuke from being Maou (excluding the very late game). There was not. On the other hand, there is plenty of stuff in the early game disqualifying a hypothetical Kyouhei from being Maou.
I also mentioned earlier that the obviousness is a plus. Looseboy wrote the story, knowing that we all expected a Haru route. The obviousness downplayed the "whodunnit" aspect, while many times increasing the anticipation for the Haru route. Moreover, there's an extra level of depth added in all the Kyousuke X Heroine-of-the-chapter interactions, when you know Kyousuke's alter is basically tormenting them.
Maou being anyone but Kyousuke makes all these interactions incredibly shallow and rather mediocre.
edited 6th Dec '13 7:52:31 PM by JetpackDragon
I'm sorry, but I don't believe this is an actual argument because I don't think you're willing to be convinced. As such, I am not willing to continue. If it makes you feel any better, I also found the reveal to be clumsy. I simply do not believe that it is actually inconsistent, nor do I believe it was any sort of last minute decision.
If you actually re-read the story with raws in hand, you'd come to exactly the same conclusion as me; it is in fact inconsistent. You can only believe otherwise because you're too lazy to go through it all like I did. If it makes you feel any better, before I re-read the story I was basically of the same opinion as you.
Uhm, actually I could say the same about you. The reason I am unwilling to be convinced is because I just gave a retort for every single argument you just gave.
★★★ Additionally, I just very recently finished re-reading the story, while considering the possibility Maou always being planned as Kyouhei. It just didn't happen. ★★★
You probably don't believe me, but I went into the re-reading with a fairly open mind, and only began to look down on the Haru route after I noticed all the problems with it (during my re-reading).
It's funny how sometimes the most stubborn people accuse others of being stubborn instead. Whether it's you that's being stubborn, or me, I suppose God only knows.
★★★ I suspect you though, because I've put that much more effort into analysing the story than you did. ★★★
I also suspect the reason you remain unconvinced is because it's too much effort to read my Great Wall of China replies and arguments.
I've broken down your replies and addressed almost every point, whilst you just ignore most of my arguments, leave an extremely short reply and proceed to go on about how I'm a condescending aggressor.
Since I'm basically done with this, having thoroughly convinced myself that I am right, by merit of being me (lol), I will once more restate my hypothesis.
I am not saying that Maou is Kyousuke. This is impossible as they directly show that Kyouhei is Maou.
☆ Instead, I am proposing that up until very late in the story, Looseboy intended for Maou to be Kyousuke, only to realise that due to time and budget constraints, it was too difficult to write like that.
☆ Instead, he introduced Kyouhei as a way of copping out and writing an easier story
☆ Which the audience would still equally enjoy, since now Kyousuke is now a redeemable hero instead of an unforgivable murderer, and the Haru x Kyousuke romance goes without a hitch
edited 6th Dec '13 8:06:33 PM by JetpackDragon
...Well that was quite the argument.
Jetpack Dragon, your early claim that nobody else in this thread appreciated the side routes is unfounded. Even Arha himself here said he liked Tsubaki's route only a couple of pages ago. Similarly, I have stated at least twice that I liked Kanon & Mizuha's routes.
As for your theory regarding the writing and the plot being changed, I - as someone with moderate experience in writing narratives - think that to change the plot as you're suggesting happened would actually take less effort, not more. Telling the audience that Kyousuke is Maou would be easy, but getting them to like it would not. Conversely, adding a character and fitting him into gaps you've already intentionally left would be easy.
That said though, you're right that there were plotholes caused by the perspective shifts, and I'm not sure anybody liked those. I had a theory about the perspective differences between each chapter, wherein each chapter was written with a different "Maou" in mind in order to confuse the reader (and the sideroutes followed from their respective styles). My initial theory stated that each would have a different writer, but this isn't necessary for it to work. For the record, these were as following:
- For Tsubaki's chapters, Maou & Kyousuke were the same person, suffering from DID.
- For Kanon's chapters, Maou & Kyousuke were the same person, although not suffering from DID.
- For Mizuha's chapters, the writer wasn't sure what to do with Maou there before the final chapter, so he focused on Yuki instead. In this, Maou is an enigmatic figure who doesn't directly intervene, so no conclusions can really be made.
- For chapter 5 (and possibly chapter 1 as well), the writing focused squarely on the equality in intelligence between Maou and Haru, with the final truth regarding Maou's identity being revealed near the start of chapter 5.
It's not a perfect theory, but it does make some sense.
edited 7th Dec '13 4:01:45 AM by Sabbo
Not Actually Indie
I will step in simply to reconfirm for Jetpack Dragon
- You are not the first person to attest that you liked the side routes.
- Yes, your tone was extremely condescending, and the "if you were as well educated and had as refined tastes in story crafting as I do, you would have come to the same conclusion as I did" angle was the reason that I decided in the first place before Arha started to respond to you that discussing this matter with you would be unproductive; once you've taken an angle like that, you've turned the discussion into a matter of identity politics rather than simply a matter of evidence.
- Setting aside the issue of whether, within the constraints of the facts presented by the story, Kyousuke could realistically have been Maou, on a meta level, we can note that extensive use of red herrings and dramatic twists near the end of their stories are part of the signature style of the studio which made G-Senjou no Maou. You can observe the same pattern in their other games.
※ "Jetpack Dragon, your early claim that nobody else in this thread appreciated the side routes is unfounded. Even Arha himself here said he liked Tsubaki's route only a couple of pages ago. Similarly, I have stated at least twice that I liked Kanon & Mizuha's routes."
★ I apologise, and will concede on this point.
※ "As for your theory regarding the writing and the plot being changed, I think that to change the plot as you're suggesting happened would actually take less effort, not more."
★ Hm? Um, I'm not sure if you read my walls of text but I'm not disagreeing with you on this point.
※ "- as someone with moderate experience in writing narratives - "
★ Then you should very well already be aware that the number one rule in story writing regarding twists is to never, ever let it open up holes in your story. Otherwise it just sets you up to look like a confused and unprepared writer who looks like he had no idea about his story direction. Well, either that or a writer who is trying too hard (and failing) to make his story shocking and amazing.
※ "Telling the audience that Kyousuke is Maou would be easy, but getting them to like it would not. Conversely, adding a character and fitting him into gaps you've already intentionally left would be easy."
★ Mmn, that's what I was saying though. Making Kyousuke both eligible for Haru-romance, as well as a redeemable and likeable character is extremely difficult. Hence my idea that Looseboy gave up towards the end.
★ I contend your claim that there were actually any real gaps left in for Kyouhei early in the game, as I was on the lookout for those during my recent re-reading. On the contrary, there's basically lines of monologue that make it impossible for Kyouhei to be Maou (without him being completely insane. Or rather, he's already insane, but like, even moreeee insane than than. Like so insane he has no idea who he is, what he wants, what his background and life were up until now, or what he believes in).
※ "That said though, you're right that there were plotholes caused by the perspective shifts, and I'm not sure anybody liked those. I had a theory about the perspective differences between each chapter, wherein each chapter was written with a different "Maou" in mind in order to confuse the reader (and the sideroutes followed from their respective styles)."
★ What I'm saying is that if it were planned from the start, Looseboy would've written Maou in the first and second chapters to sound like Kyousuke, but never write anything that wouldn't make sense as Kyouhei. In fact he does, hence my hypothesis.
★ On the other hand, if he did plan for Kyouhei in the beginning, then he got too into writing Maou's monologues to appear as Kyousuke; accidentally putting in many things that would disqualify Kyouhei from having a solid and consistent personality.
※ "Yes, your tone was extremely condescending"
★ I apologise. It wasn't intentionally condescending and I hadn't intended to troll or bait people, so I conclude that I am probably just a naturally insulting person. I will reflect on this for my sake, as well.
※ "identity politics"
★ You probably shouldn't use big words unless you know what they mean.
※ "You can observe the same pattern in their other games."
★ Implying that I can't tell the difference between well written and consistent plot twists, such as in その横顔を見つめてしまう or 車輪の国 and the swiss cheese plot twist in G線上 regarding Maou's identity.
edited 7th Dec '13 10:48:44 PM by jetpackdragon
On a completely different note...
''This is how you italicize stuff.''
This is how you italicize stuff.
'''This is how you bold stuff.'''
This is how you bold stuff.
[[quoteblock]]This is how you quote stuff.[[/quoteblock]]
[[spoiler:And this is a spoiler tag.]]
And this is a spoiler tag.
Yes, they have to be typed in manually, and note that you can't split a spoiler tag over multiple paragraphs (but you can for bold, italics & quoting).
@Sabbo
How did you do that? That's amazing. I'm only familiar with like [/i][/b] syntax etc. so when that failed I was completely at a loss. Thank you! I'll try it out.
EDIT: Oh my, it works. Much amazes. Many wow. Is there a page teaching these things in the forum? I'm going to try and find out how to do dotpoints next, so I can stop typing '※' every time.
Additionally, you, Arha, said
You are いmmediately jumping to the conclusion that if I dislike it, it's because I'm butthurt that the story didn't progress in the direction that I would prefer. You are clearly being incredibly closed-minded. Why, I can't presume to understand, but perhaps because I inadvertently offended you in the first post (again, sorry).
I actually very much appreciated the showdown between Kyousuke and the Fukuyama Jun villain. However, I think it's actually rather ironic that you say that. I suspect that because you were too captivated by the Haru route and all the 男の花道 playing in the background that you fail to accept that it was bad writing.
★You say it yourself here; you felt it to be clumsy. Good writing is not clumsy.★
Again, it's not the plot direction itself that I disliked. I too can appreciate heroic main characters (and I very much enjoyed 車輪の国’s Ken). My problem was with the writing itself. Were it more well written, I'd actually prefer Maou being Kyouhei. I don't do well with heartbreak, and even the whole jail thing really got to me.
I'll say it again, but my problem is with the writing and delivery itself. A red herring is only good writing when you make sure it absolutely presents no plotholes; additionally, a red herring is only good writing when it is consistent and relatively believable.
"Red herrings" can be very badly handled. For example, I could be writing Harry Potter and in the final book, I reveal that Voldemort is actually Harry's father, with all previous evidence suggesting that this is impossible. For it to be good writing, I have to make sure none of the clues suggesting that Voldy is Tom Riddle are actually solid enough to disqualify James Potter from being Voldemort.
This is not the case in G線上. Again, it's not "impossible" for chapter 1 and 2 Maou to have been Kyouhei, but considering Maou's mentality and monologues, Kyouhei would at best be very confused about his own values and personality. At worst he'd be a massive plothole. Red herrings aren't good writing unless you very carefully make sure that your story is clean and presents no holes.
★Just because it was a good plot, does not necessarily mean it was well delivered, nor good writing.★
edited 8th Dec '13 1:00:29 AM by jetpackdragon
Yeah, the coding here is based on how the main TV Tropes site here works, which I believe is in turn inspired from services such as Wikipedia.
Oh, and just to clarify, those ' marks are the single quotation marks/apostrophes, typically found on the same button as proper quotation marks. Two make italics, three make bold, and five make both. There's a short list of the stuff you can do if you click the "Show Markup Help" button when typing up a post, and a full list on this page.
EDIT: Bullet points are an asterisk *
- like this
- (and you can stack them if you want by typing two or three in a row without spaces. They have to be the first thing in a line though.)
edited 8th Dec '13 1:07:00 AM by Sabbo
Not Actually Indie
If you're going to apologize for being condescending, don't turn around and keep doing it in the very next sentence. I know perfectly well what identity politics mean, and if you don't understand why I described the discussion in that way, you can ask, but assuming that someone saying something that doesn't make sense to you equates to them being dim just takes away other people's incentive to hold conversations with you.
...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
Those last three posts were amusing in sequence. Completely understandable, but still amusing.
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.