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Old Magnificent Bastard thread

Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here

Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.

Here is how the process works:

    Process 

  1. If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.

  2. After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".

  3. Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!

Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:

    Ground Rules 

  1. To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!

  2. No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
    1. Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
    2. Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
    3. Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.

  3. Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").

  4. If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.

  5. If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!

  6. Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.

  7. Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.

  8. If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
    1. For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
    2. If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.

  9. Please keep all discussions "in-house".
    1. What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
    2. Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
    3. Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.

If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:

    Effortpost Template 

What is the work?

This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.

Who is the candidate and what have they done?

This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.

How are they Magnificent?

This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.

How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?

What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.

This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.

Final verdict?

This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.

And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!


Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#12776: May 7th 2024 at 6:49:32 PM

[tup]Toranaga.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#12777: May 7th 2024 at 7:55:04 PM

Big yes to Toranga! Great work bro!

WetFlannels Classy, Refined, Unstable from Nearby, on a cosmological scale. Since: Oct, 2021 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Classy, Refined, Unstable
#12778: May 7th 2024 at 8:33:51 PM

Also to get this out the way... The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare? No one counts, the protagonists are easily magnificent enough but they lack that bastardness flourish.

The Big Bad is a torturing Nazi so yeah no dice with him either.

Oh, Mr. Kennedy, you entertain me. To show my appreciation, I will help you awaken from your world of clichés.
jlvs200s Jogo from The Netherlands (Troper in training) Relationship Status: At the center of everything that happens to me
Jogo
#12779: May 7th 2024 at 10:05:57 PM

[tup] Suzuki, Toranaga and the Transformers G1 candidates

"Stand proud, Sukuna, you are strong." | He/Him
Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#12780: May 7th 2024 at 10:48:53 PM

  • Warframe: Parvos Granum is the founder of the Corpus. Starting off as a farmer working in brutal conditions, Parvos heard a voice pushing him to seek out greater wealth. Guided by the Corpus Tenets, Parvos would steal jewels from the Orokin, then intentionally let himself be caught to hide that he had swallowed a precious gemstone which he'd use to help his fellow farmers start their own businesses through loans and financial counsel. Using his share of the wealth his countless clients earned, Parvos would found city of Corposium. Parvos then became a renowned scientist thanks to his work on Specter Particle theory, but would fall victim to an assassination attempt, which he'd survive at the cost of being stranded in the Granum Void. Centuries later, Nef Anyo, claiming to be Parvos' son, would break into the Granum Void in order to gain power over the Board of Directors, only for Parvos to express disgust at the corruption that had consumed the Corpus in his absence and unleash a horde of Specters upon Nef's fleet. Although the Tenno would stop Parvos this time, he would not give up on his ambition, continuously seizing opportunities to increase his influence over the Origin System. Parvos Granum's intelligence, politeness, and principles make his stand out as one of Warframe's most charismatic antagonists, coming across as much less despicable than the rest of the Corpus despite his constant, ruthless hunt for wealth and power.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12781: May 8th 2024 at 1:15:28 AM

[tup]dirk

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ravok Caesar Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Caesar
#12782: May 8th 2024 at 1:23:17 AM

Sure to Dirk

@Wet: Huh, you're right, guess someone was eager to see Toranaga listed! [lol]

  • Dexter's Laboratory:
    • "Simion": Simion is a brilliant, evolved chimp who was sent into space by humans, only to be abandoned. Irradiated by gamma and developing an intelligence so grand as to warp reality, Simion spent years cultivating an armada that he leads on a quest to destroy Earth in vengeance for his betrayal by humans. Luring Monkey into a trap, Simion tries to politely convince Monkey of their right to the conquer the galaxy, only to be swayed into giving up his villainy by a simple act of kindness from Monkey.
    • "Rasslor": Rasslor is a bombastic, intergalactic warrior who travels the galaxy seeking worthy challenges to his might. Summoning the greatest of Earth's fighters, Rasslor forces them to fight him lest he destroy their homeworld, and uses both his own strength and his clever fighting styles to defeat them one by one. When finally faced down by Monkey, Rasslor easily defeats the hero, but is so moved by Monkey's indomitable willpower that Rasslor declares him a worthy opponent and honorably spares Earth.

WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
PassingThrough Since: Feb, 2024
#12783: May 8th 2024 at 5:29:07 AM

Toranaga is such an MB he transcends the time of the EP [lol]

Bullman "Cool. Coolcoolcool." Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
#12784: May 8th 2024 at 6:53:53 AM

Yes to Dirk.

Would this work for the quotes page:

Yuri Orlov: I like you, Jack. Well, maybe not, but I understand you. Let me tell you what's gonna happen. This way you can prepare yourself.
Jack Valentine: Okay...
Yuri Orlov: Soon there's gonna be a knock on that door and you will be called outside. In the hall there will be a man who outranks you. First, he'll compliment you on the fine job you've done, that you're making the world a safer place, that you're to receive a commendation and a promotion. And then he's going to tell you that I am to be released. You're going to protest. You'll probably threaten to resign. But in the end I will be released. The reason I'll be released is the same reason you think I'll be convicted. I do rub shoulders with some of the most vile, sadistic men calling themselves leaders today. But some of those men are the enemies of your enemies. And while the biggest arms dealer in the world is your boss, the President of the United States, who ships more merchandise in a day than I do in a year... sometimes it's embarrassing to have his fingerprints on the guns. Sometimes he needs a freelancer like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying. So... you call me evil. But unfortunately for you, I'm a necessary evil.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#12785: May 8th 2024 at 9:23:09 AM

[up] Feels a tad too smug imo.

What's the work?

Spider-Man: The Animated Series was about Spider-Man doing spider things, frequently going up against the Kingpin of Crime himself, Wilson Fisk.

Who is Richard Fisk?

Son of Wilson, and a budding criminal mastermind himself. A major part of Fisk's criminal empire, Richard is introduced when his father is at risk of being exposed for selling state secrets. Kingpin's assistant, Smythe, suggests using Peter Parker—a young, completely harmless college student whom had met Fisk before—as a fall guy, and Richard is assigned to carry out this plan, hiring him at his company and then using one of Kingpin's moles in the government to frame him for data theft.

Richard adds his own little spin to things to make Peter look even more guilty, hiring the Chameleon to pose as Spider-Man and break him out of jail—framing the wall-crawler for aiding in the crime as well. He proceeds to lock Peter up in a cell with no air holes, leaving him to slowly suffocate to death now that he no longer has need of him—though Daredevil arrives to save him. Fisk is naturally pissed, but Richard alerts him to news that Aunt May, stressed from all this, has fainted and been taken to the hospital. Quickly catching on to what his son is suggesting, Fisk has Richard send Chameleon to the hospital in case Peter decides to show up. Meanwhile, Richard puts their federal stooge on the lookout for the data proving Peter's innocence, intercepting it when Matt Murdock tries to give it to the police. Richard prepares to destroy all the incriminating evidence, locking up Peter and MJ in the oxygen deprivation chamber again, but the police and Daredevil followed their federal mole to his hideout, and a firefight ensues.

A cornered Richard, noticing the Chameleon about to break free from Spider-Man's webs, throws the evidence to him to take back to Fisk. However, Chameleon is eventually caught of course, and Peter is cleared of all charges. Richard is tried and sent to jail, his father coldly telling him "sacrifices must be made" as he dejectedly refuses to give up his collaborators... leaving Fisk to wonder how long it will take for Richard to come for revenge, like he did to his own father years ago.

Apparently this would have come to fruition in season 6 when Richard became the Rose, but the series was canceled before then. Instead, Richard continues to serve his father from within prison, keeping an eye out for potential allies. When one prisoner, Hobie Brown, saves him from a fight, Richard sees potential and gives his name to Fisk as a potential pawn he could use. In other incidents, he befriends the villain Tombstone, who wants revenge on Daily Bugle reporter Robbie Robertson. Richard leans on his father to arrange for Robbie to be sent to prison in an overcomplicated plot: after kidnapping and knocking out Robbie, they bring him to a robbery and have several goons act like he's the mastermind, even giving him a gun that's remotely set off when Spider-Man arrives. Once Robbie is arrested and convicted, Fisk hacks into the police databases to get him sent to Tombstone's prison. With the help of the fake guard, Tombstone and Richard intend to escape along with Robbie, condemning him to be a fugitive. Spider-Man, catching wind of the plot, breaks into the prison to save Robbie, but Richard sees his rampage as an excellent distraction for the guards while they slip away.

And then a smash cut to Spider-Man suddenly on the roof to see them in their escape helicopter, somehow. The plot is foiled, Robbie proven innocent, yada yada yada.

Is he magnificent?

It's a little ambiguous how much of the planning is from Smythe or his father, but Richard has his own little touches to their plots that make him stand out even as a minor villain—breaking Peter out to make him look guilty, hiring Chameleon to pose as Spider-Man to get him framed as well, coordinating with their mole to get the incriminating data, ensuring the safety of the evidence by handing it off to Chameleon once he's captured, etc.

Is he a bastard?

Son of the Kingpin and accomplice to all his deeds, check and check.

The repeated attempts to suffocate Peter may be a bit bad, but keep in mind this was one of the most infamously censored shows in Marvel history. The death trap is portrayed less as a super sadistic manner of murder and more a PG way of putting Peter in mortal peril.

Plus, his already listed dad is Wilson "blackmails Norman Osborn into making chemical weapons" Fisk, so, you know, it's hardly the worst.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 12th 2024 at 10:57:17 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
EmperorGeode Not the Eye from A Galaxy far, far away Since: Oct, 2022 Relationship Status: On the prowl
jlvs200s Jogo from The Netherlands (Troper in training) Relationship Status: At the center of everything that happens to me
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12789: May 8th 2024 at 9:59:49 AM

[tup]Fisk

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Iceaura39 from Where joy and happiness go to cry (Petty Master) Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
#12790: May 8th 2024 at 10:33:18 AM

[tup] to Suzuki, Toranaga and Fisk.

Now, I have accomplished the feat of finishing my first RPG Maker game, and I have two candidates for us today. Without further ado:

What is the work?

Nocturne: Rebirth is an RPG made by Shou on RPG Maker, translated in English in 2015 after its initial 2009 release. It features our Villain Protagonist, Reviel Von De Russert, a vampire Ancestor who has been mistaken for a hero after conveniently rescuing a girl named Luna, and slowly redeems himself while trying to unseal his power.

    First Candidate 

Who is Ristill Eva Mizants? What has she done?

Ristill Eva Mizants is a fellow Ancestor and Reviel's Rival. Aware of Reviel's overwhelming strength, Ristill feels a bit of an inferiority complex, and plots and schemes to one day be able to defeat him.

She makes her debut appearing in Algiz while Reviel is out trying to dismantle the barrier, and encounters Luna, who is trying to treat a young boy's wound. She helps her out by applying Thaumaturgy, and encourages Luna herself to learn it, offering to teach her even as the girl doubts her ability to do so, making use of Reverse Psychology to get Luna to accept the offer and put her doubts away. This offer wasn't made out of the goodness of her heart, though, rather it was done to troll Reviel.

Later on, she shows up after Reviel's battle against Idith Midowin, observing that Idith lost even after trying her hardest. She introduces herself as a vampire, effortlessly shrugging off Idith's attempts on her life and No Selling her Super Mode. She offers her the power to defeat Reviel once and for all, demonstrating the power of Maxwell, a curse that possesses whoever is affected, making them go Ax-Crazy, while boosting their power. Though Idith refuses, Ristill takes her leave, sparing her life and telling her that she hopes Idith will give a more favourable response when they meet again.

From this point onwards, Ristill begins to go on the attack. She sets up multiple Maxwells in a cave nearby, and when Reviel investigates them, she has him afflicted with a Dark Chains curse to further weaken him. This successfully puts him out of commission, though with how OP Reviel is, it would have only lasted a few days had Luna not gone out to get a cure for him.

Later, she eavesdrops on a discussion between Luna and Khaos, only revealing herself when called out by the latter. There, she discusses her latest plan regarding Maxwell, revealing her intention to gather guinea pigs from Algiz to experiment with it as part of her plan. One such Maxwell attacks Luna while she is out gathering herbs.

In her next scene, she appears before a troubled Luna, and confirms that yes, she does indeed wish to kill Reviel, and only approached her because she was close to him. She then opens up about her reasons for wanting to kill Reviel. At first, she simply wanted to satisfy his thirst for challenge, as well as to put a stop to his "frenzied feastings of blood and massacres", openly calling him crazy for his sheer bloodthirst. Once she realised how much weaker she was than him, she ran away in fear, and became obsessed with reaching and surpassing his level of power.

She then reveals that she has improved her Maxwells, so they can now control living monsters rather than just dead ones, and threatens to put Luna under Maxwell's control, only stopped by the intervention of Khaos' familiar, Shylphiel. Though Ristill threatens her, she realises that she would never be able to win in a fight against a cooperating Reviel and Khaos, and withdraws, a little irritated, but content in knowing that Luna isn't her only pawn.

Later on, Luna gets kidnapped by bandits. Ristill, admittedly, had no part in this, but she observes the situation from afar, watching Reviel rescue her, and approaches the Sole Survivor of the group, tempting him with the power to kill Reviel. It is, naturally, a new and improved Maxwell. After the man is possessed by it and dies as a result, she is approached by the vampire hunter Idith, who confirms that she is an Ancestor before attacking her. Ristill no sells the attack, revealing that Idith's vampiric powers come from her, so she can't use them to hurt her. But she still respects Idith's power and strong will, enough so that she decides she'll be the perfect vessel for her Maxwell. Thus, she begins persuading Idith to accept it, appealing to the amount of power it can give her and pointing out that at her current power level, she'll never be able to defeat Reviel.

After this, she approaches a melancholic Reviel, and challenges him to a duel, but he, growing disillusioned with the endless passing of time, simply allows her to have a shot at him. She, though surprised, accepts, and likely would have killed him then and there if not for Luna sacrificing herself to protect him. She leaves him, not wanting to kill him in that state anymore, and reissues her challenge to him, saying he can come to her castle whenever he's ready to fight.

At the castle, Reviel comes across Idith, who is revealed to have accepted Ristill's offer, and activates its power to attack him. At first, she seems to be overwhelmed by it, and it's clearly done a number on her sanity, judging by the amount of uncharacteristic evil cackling she does. But, halfway through the fight, Idith manages to reassert herself. This turns out to be what Ristill was counting on; using Idith to learn how to control Maxwell. When Reviel confronts her at the heart of the castle, Ristill bestows herself with the power of Maxwell, using it to boost her power and finally defeat Reviel.

She loses, but not without putting up one hell of a fight, and Reviel, though clearly exhausted, moves in for the kill, only to be stopped by a newly-revived Luna. This surprises both vampires, and Reviel tries to get her to move, but eventually concedes and spares Ristill. This offends her a little, but she accepts her defeat, vowing that one day, she will kill him.

She doesn't actually try anything else against him over the course of the game, as after that, Khaos shows up with his plans and forces the two to make an Enemy Mine to stop him. Ristill is ambushed by Khaos, and would have died if not for Idith saving her at the last second. She then proceeds to return the favour by intervening during Reviel's fight with Khaos, using her unpredictable powers of creation to muddle with his Laplace's Demon spell and give Reviel a fighting chance. So, they win in the end, and after Khaos' death, she parts ways with Reviel on relatively good terms - still out to kill him, but more genuinely friendly than before.

Is she Magnificent? Does she think on her feet?

Ristill is a clever, manipulative woman, excellent at putting on an affable act to get what she wants. Barring a few exceptions, she is always calm and collected, and even when she loses her cool, she usually manages to compose herself shortly. This goes hand-in-hand with her capacity for scheming, as she puts multiple plans in place to kill Reviel. She has Maxwell-infused humans and monsters attack him directly, she turns the vampire hunter Idith into a vampire and, with control over her vampiric abilities, forms an alliance with her to defeat Reviel, all while studying her use of the Maxwell abilities to learn how to control it herself without going mad, so she can use her master-stroke of empowering herself with the dark power while averting the potentially reckless implications of the Professor Guinea Pig trope. She still loses in the end, but both in-story and in-game, she puts up one hell of a fight.

Khaos puts it best when he ambushes her during the final dungeon, that she's actually the greater threat to his plans compared to Reviel. Reviel is a Strong and Skilled fighter, but is fairly straightforward and not much of a strategist, and as such can only defeat people who are weaker than him. Ristill isn't quite as strong, but her ambitions, chaotic powers and schemes may enable her to triumph over those who are stronger than her. This is later reinforced when Ristill's Power of Creation abilities turn out to be unpredictable enough to act as the Achilles' Heel to Khaos' Laplace's Demon spell, turning the Hopeless Boss Fight into something actually winnable. And she came to this realisation on her own, too.

Is she a Bastard? Too much?

While Reviel is a Villain Protagonist for most of the game, that doesn't mean his enemies are strictly better than him, and she does some pretty low deeds herself. Throughout her run as Big Bad, Ristill uses living beings as guinea pigs for her Maxwell experiments, even threatening Luna's life with one, and manipulates and vampirizes the much more sympathetic Idith to achieve her goal. Though actually killing Luna was accidental, she doesn't show much remorse for it, either.

That being said, she isn't really too sadistic about it, and everything she does is in service of her goal, so save for her little prank on Reviel early on (which isn't even evil in the slightest), she doesn't indulge in much needless cruelty. Part of her reason for disliking Reviel comes down to disgust at his needless slaughter of humans in the past, too, showing she does have standards. It's also hard to say she's too bad when she, touched by Luna's decision to spare her, puts out the fires caused by Hypnosis' attack on Algiz, and later helps oppose Khaos' plans to overhaul the world, offering to keep Shylphiel alive with her mana after Khaos' death. It's not quite a Heel–Face Turn, but it certainly shows she has a heart in there.

What's the competition like?

Reviel isn't stupid by any measure, but most of his threat comes from his strength and skill, which Ristill has to work around in her schemes. And through her Maxwell plan, she actually does manage to put up a fight against him despite him otherwise being so much stronger than her, so even if she doesn't win in the end, that's still rather impressive.

Khaos is another brilliant schemer, but his and Ristill's plans don't really intersect — Khaos' plans were the reason Ristill was able to put hers in motion, and while Khaos ultimately did benefit from Ristill acting as she did, she did that entirely on her own, without having to be manipulated into it by Khaos. And while he did help rig things in her favour to distract them both from his own plans, she did get back at him by being a key part of his eventual defeat. So, his machinations don't affect her chances.

Final verdict?

Though there's a stronger candidate in the game, I think Ristill might just be able to qualify.

    Second Candidate 

Who is Khaos? What has he done?

Khaos is the third and most powerful vampire Ancestor, and a friend of Reviel's. Despite his immense power, Khaos prefers to live as a hermit, and is a relatively inactive force for most of the game (or the entirety of the original release, at any rate), occasionally making commentary on what's going on around him and serving as Reviel's source of crafting. At one point, when Reviel falls ill due to Ristill's curse, Khaos helps Luna retrieve medicine to get him back on his feet. At another, he requests Reviel to place a mirror in a certain spot in the Forest of Origins. But otherwise, as the game focuses on the conflict between Reviel and Ristill, Khaos takes a backseat.

Once Ristill is defeated, however, the village Reviel has been staying at gets attacked by a horde of Devils led by the "Satan of the Fiery Hell", Hypnosis. This serves as the moment that solidifies Reviel's Heel–Face Turn, but right afterwards, Khaos appears, noting how much weaker Reviel seems to be than before, due to actually struggling against Hypnosis. When Reviel questions his attitude, Khaos admits to three things. 1) That he was the one who sealed Reviel's power with the elemental barrier. 2) That he helped Ristill grow stronger so she could confront him. And 3) that he was the one who opened a wormhole to the village, allowing Devils to enter.

Khaos explains his disillusionment with the world, having travelled while Reviel and Ristill slumbered, even having been a hero at some point, as he helped the humans of the region overthrow the mad king Gilbard in the Revolutionary War eight years prior to the story, only to have been betrayed by his comrades later on. He then reveals his reason for opening the wormhole - to test Reviel's Heel–Face Turn and to show him and Luna that continuing to hide their vampiric nature is pointless as he exposes it to everyone. He points out that everyone's fear and doubt in light of this truth despite just having saved everyone's lives is "the detestable nature of humans", and then tells them all that he wishes to destroy the world. He tells them that he's already made preparations to do this, but thanks to his friendship with Reviel and Ristill, he will give them one chance to stop him. At this, he leaves, waiting for them to arrive at the final dungeon, Khaos' World, which forms from the mirror he had Reviel put down earlier in the game.

Though he only appears at the end of this dungeon, there are parts of exposition here that reveal his motives. Rather than simply destroying the world out of disillusionment or dislike like he claimed, Khaos plans to reconstruct it, using time and space magic so he can revive his loved one, who fell saving him from an enemy's blade when he was travelling the world and helping humans. Luna even deduces that he's lying about his motives, stating that he loves the world too much, and has been too nice, even performing a Villainous Rescue when his familiar, Shylphiel, attacks the party. Seeing his familiar almost at her limit, he tells Reviel that the time to face him has not yet come, and teleports away with Shylphiel.

While Reviel makes further progress, Khaos turns his attention to Ristill, revealing the existence of the magical elements of time and space; the lynchpin of his plan. The two battle, and Khaos reveals that between her and Reviel, he actually fears her more; even though she had assumed he was simply culling the weak first. Khaos explains that while Reviel is strong, Ristill can bridge the gap and keep up with him through wits alone — and for that reason, she is the greater threat, and her ability to create things from nothing will surely prove to be a thorn in his side.

After defeating her, he then waits for Reviel and Luna to reach him, revealing to him that Ristill escaped. Once again reiterating his desire to disassemble the world and turn back time to "the way things should be", he then makes the pair an offer. In his new world, he offers to turn back time so that Reviel's actions can be fully undone, and Luna can return to normal. His offers are rejected, however, on the basis that all the progress that has been made will also be reset, and reality must be accepted for what it is. Khaos disagrees, calling them cowards who can't appreciate his ideals, and the Final Boss battle begins.

Shortly in the middle of the fight, he casts a spell - Laplace's Demon - that allows him to avoid every one of his opponents' attacks by predicting them perfectly. The battle becomes one of the hopeless variety for a while before Ristill shows up. With her help, Khaos is finally defeated even after Shylphiel forces her way into the fight.

In the end, Khaos, accepting his loss and recognising his fellow Ancestors as worthy opponents, recognises that this was his last possible chance at reviving his loved one, and now that that's been foiled, he has nothing. Figuring that his story will never have a happy ending, he bids his friends adieu and undoes Shylphiel's contract with Alhazard, her magic sword, so that she can live on. At that, he jumps to his death, ending his threat once and for all.

Is he Magnificent? Does he think on his feet?

Khaos may be the strongest Ancestor, but this fact isn't very apparent throughout the game, as he barely lifts a finger and gets as far as he does mainly by using his brain. He starts the plot of the story to occupy Reviel and Ristill while he makes preparations for his grand plan, and generally acts as a more mature and intellectual counterpart to his relatively callow familiar, Shylphiel. He didn't foresee Idith's intervention, which was ultimately his undoing, but it's not like he could have been reasonably expected to, either, given she didn't even enter Khaos' World at the same time as the heroes, and we the player didn't even see it.

He is a clever, philosophical type of guy who makes good points about the hypocrisy of man during his Motive Rant. Despite his disillusionment, he cares deeply for his friends, and above all, he is a highly sympathetic character. But his schemes are impressive nonetheless, and while a little arrogant once his true colours are revealed, he never reaches Smug Snake levels of arrogance and takes his defeat in relative stride. Even when he is Driven to Suicide at the finale, the scene is played for pathos. He bids a final goodbye to his friends, undoes Shylphiel's contract with her magic sword so she can live on, and calmly contemplates where he went wrong for him to have failed to reach his desire while Reviel succeeded, before smiling as he throws himself off the floating island. It's not framed in a disqualifyingly pitiful manner, but as a touching, tear-jerking scene. This isn't even preceded by any kind of Villainous Breakdown, either.

Is he a Bastard? Too much?

Durr. He's trying to destroy the world. And even without that, he did put Reviel and Ristill's lives in peril by pitting them against each other; though they're both bad people at the start of the game, so this isn't quite as bad as it sounds. Not to mention, the stunt he pulled with the Devil wormhole that put all of Algiz at risk.

But he's not all bad. The reason why he wants to destroy the world is so he can reconstruct it into a more ideal one, and be reunited with his fallen lover, who died protecting him from an enemy's blade. As stated by Shylphiel, Khaos wanted to give the heroes a chance to stop him. And he offers Reviel and Luna benefits in his new world, too - he offers to undo Reviel's crimes and Luna's vampirism, both of which have become sources of angst for the pair. And he has redeeming qualities, too, such as his fondness for Reviel and Ristill despite his schemes against them. While Shylphiel was designed from his fallen lover's remains, Khaos does seem to care about her as her own person; he saves her from Reviel when she's at her limit, initially stops her from intervening on his behalf in the final boss fight, and his last living act is to undo her life-threatening contract with Alhazard and beseech her to continue living.

What's the competition like?

Well, the other two Ancestors, Reviel and Ristill, are obstacles that he needs to circumvent for his goals, and he does this masterfully. He set up the elemental barrier to weaken Reviel and buy time for his plan, and helped Reviel overcome Ristill, who Reviel believed was responsible. While he didn't manipulate Ristill directly, he did figure her attacks on Reviel would help buy time, and so aided both sides while keeping them unaware of his true machinations.

Final verdict?

I can pretty easily say yes to him. Easily the stronger keep from this game, imo.

It is I, the narrator, categorising addict and writer of books you haven't read.
Bullman "Cool. Coolcoolcool." Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
#12791: May 8th 2024 at 11:49:30 AM

Yes to Fisk, Mizants, and Khaos

Edited by Bullman on May 8th 2024 at 1:50:06 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
LarryT I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT! from the Eldritch Ocean Abyss Since: Aug, 2023
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#12794: May 8th 2024 at 4:24:40 PM

[tup] the Nocturne duo, and Dirk and Toranaga since I missed him earlier. Nay to Dardo, and also leaning no for Tamer since his plans blow up in his face. Admittedly not sure I'm properly understanding that post, so I'll officially abstain.

What's the work?

Avengers Assemble is...

Uh...

Look, there's no way I can describe it without being mean. It was a crappy Avengers cartoon that was crappy. But it did give us someone we're unlikely to find elsewhere!

Who is the Winter Soldier?

Bucky Barnes himself, Captain America's old partner before he was frozen in ice. We all know the story, HYDRA captured and brainwashed him into an assassin until Cap returned to break his programming.

Unfortunately, Bucky now wants revenge by any means necessary on the Red Skull. Who is currently a blabbering, insane wreck held prisoner in the Avengers' tower, being interrogated for information on the coming threat of Thanos. After some recon, the Winter Soldier hacks into the tower and begins slowly yet steadily ambushing the Avengers, knocking out all the heavy hitters before deliberately tripping an alarm to lure the others away from the jail cells. He proceeds to remotely hijack their jet, having it attack as a distraction while he takes the Skull out through New York's train tunnels. Cap figures out what's happening and confronts Bucky, but he blows up the tracks so the Avengers will again be too distracted to stop his escape.

Making his base at a missile silo, Bucky stashes Skull inside one of the giant missiles before launching a bevy of them all around the world. The one the Skull is in will annihilate the HYDRA base that created the Winter Soldier, while the others will, once more, serve as diversions for the other Avengers. Cap jumps on this missile, and he and Bucky fight whilst he tries to convince his old partner not to become a villain like the Skull. This... sort of works? Bucky, instead of taking the perfect opportunity to shoot both Cap and Skull and win, paraglides away, though with the caveat that he's stalled long enough Steve has no time to both save Skull and stop the missile. Still, the Falcon comes to save the day, and Steve seems convinced he's given up the feud.

And he's never seen again. Because these shows wouldn't know a good story beat to follow up on if you hit them over the head with it.

Is he magnificent?

Badass assassin, runs rings around the Avengers, isn't depicted as too broken from his past or anything. Good here.

Is he a bastard?

Willing to launch missiles at half a dozen populated areas as a mere distraction, and could not care less about how the Skull is needed to stop Thanos. He just wants revenge.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#12795: May 8th 2024 at 4:42:46 PM

[tup]winter solidor, dirk and nocturne duo.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
LarryT I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT! from the Eldritch Ocean Abyss Since: Aug, 2023
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
#12796: May 8th 2024 at 4:47:14 PM

Leaning yes, but how is he not too bad?

In honor of Akira Toriyama
EmeraldEmperor Lies and Violence! Since: Oct, 2020
Lies and Violence!
#12797: May 8th 2024 at 5:01:54 PM

Ultimately gives up on pursuing further violence; is far from the worst in the universe with Thanos and the Skull himself running around; and he fully expects the Avengers to contain the worst of the damage, only really being concerned with destroying the one base—which will presumably catch civilians in the crossfire, given their determination to stop the missile, but there's not so much focus drawn to it as to be too monstrous.

Edited by EmeraldEmperor on May 8th 2024 at 8:02:58 AM

Bullman "Cool. Coolcoolcool." Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
#12798: May 8th 2024 at 5:05:17 PM

Yes to the Winter Soldier.

I am in the minority that liked Assembled.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
LarryT I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT! from the Eldritch Ocean Abyss Since: Aug, 2023
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
#12799: May 8th 2024 at 5:25:07 PM

Thanks smile

[tup] Winter Soldier

Edited by LarryT on May 8th 2024 at 5:25:28 AM

In honor of Akira Toriyama
WilyGryphon Since: Apr, 2023

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