Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the new Complete Monster (CM) cleanup thread! This thread is where we clean up or cut already-existing entries.
If you're looking to add new entries, please see the approval thread.
IMPORTANT: Before you begin any discussions on this thread, please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List. Here, you'll find explanations of the criteria for the trope as well as our rules/procedures for approving and cutting candidates.
What goes through this thread?
- Cut requests. If you believe a CM has been approved and they do not count, this thread is where you propose their removal. To know how to go about this, please see the FAQ folder on the Administrivia page, where the process is explained in detail.
- If we ever need to consider cutting multiple examples without individually reviewing them (e.g. if we discover widespread plagiarism with a particular troper's CMs), the initial discussion will be on this thread and we'll then escalate to the mod team (as described here) to get a formal consensus if we decide to recommend a mass cut.
- If an entry was put on the wrong subpage/YMMV page, you may propose where they should be moved to.
- Full rewrites of existing entries, including expansions, trims, and ground-up rewrites. If your rewrite is approved by the thread, feel free to add it to the drafts page so that other users can check grammar and the like before it is included with the rest of the weekly swaps.
- If an entry on a work's YMMV page doesn't match the entry on the media subpage, you can bring it here to discuss which entry works better.
What does not go through this thread?
- New candidate proposals - as stated before, those are done on this thread.
- Unapproved wicks - if a Troper encounters either of these kinds of wicks, they can be cut with no approval.
- Any CM link on a non-YMMV page - as a YMMV trope, it should not be linked on those pages regardless of any cleanup effort. The only exception is if the wick is being used within the definition of another trope.
- If an CM link on a YMMV page refers to an unapproved character. If it refers to an approved character on any such page, the wick can stay. On the other hand, if the unapproved character being linked to sounds like they might have promise (and you don't feel like checking it out for yourself), feel free to mention it on the approval thread - someone may already know why they don't count, or it could invite a brand new discussion!
- Proposals for images, quotes, and videos of already-approved CMs - quotes and images are proposed on the approval thread, while videos can be uploaded normally as they are screened for approval by the moderation.
- Crosswicking examples to YMMV pages - if an example has already been approved and added to the main page, you do not require any special permission to add the example to a work's YMMV page (assuming the work has a page already). If a YMMV page doesn't exist yet, then you can make it yourself, but either way, feel free to just add the example without asking.
- Small changes to existing entries - these can simply be done on a Troper's own prerogative with no approval.
- Spelling and grammar fixes.
- Pothole changes.
- Minor rewordings.
- Spoiler tags.
While these changes do not require any kind of approval, it is requested that should you make any of these changes, you do one of the following:
- Make the same changes on the relevant Sandbox page, then add the Sandbox to the list at the bottom of the drafts page. This will add the Sandbox to the weekly swaps and ensure that the edits end up on the relevant locked page. If the Sandbox is already listed, then once you make the edits, your job is already done!
- If you don't know how the Sandboxes work or simply don't have the time to find it, then you can simply post on the thread about the changes you made. Someone else can then make the edit on the relevant Sandbox and add it to the weekly swaps.
- Alternatively, you can simply request that the change be made directly to the locked page on the Locked Pages thread. Members of this thread keep track of that one, so we will ensure that the changes are made in the Sandbox so that it doesn't get deleted during the next swap.
Again, these changes don't require any approval, but we prefer to keep the entries on the YMMV pages and the locked pages the same in order to avoid any miscommunication or errors between entries, so if you do make the change, we would greatly appreciate it if you could ensure the change is made on the locked page as well.
As a final note, we do not care what other sites have to say regarding whether or not a character counts. We have our own criteria and they have theirs for their CM equivalents; while they are similar, they are not exactly the same and should not be treated as such. Another site removing a character from their equivalent should not be a reason why a cut is proposed here, and if this is the case, it will likely lead to mod intervention.
Other than this, once again, welcome to the cleanup thread, and we look forward to your contributions!
Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 14th 2024 at 11:30:03 AM
Not the Eye
Cut not so good doctor.
The Draftsman of Doom
Cut Von Kook.
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Again, I will add that unlike Von Kook, Bouldger’s “disposing” of kids is left vauge, whether she kills them or simply kill’s them out, and she herself is a massive head with a great many of money and land to her disposal, while The doctor is just a fake doctor working out of a poorly made trailer house.
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
My issue remains child abuse is the subject of both of their villainy: he tries separating conjoined twins in a violent and unethical manner but she's condemning kids to years of suffering before at worst killing them, at best throwing them to the streets traumatized.
Lies and Violence!
Cut.
Since I'm on the topic of Sandman stuff, I felt the Corinthian's entry could use a few adjustments. It implies he's only started inspiring serial killers at the convention when he's actually been doing it the entire time, and I wanted to expand on the global implications of his plan.
- Old: The Corinthian is a nightmare who glories in his dark nature. Helping to keep Dream of the Endless imprisoned without any care of the horrific effect on the world, the Corinthian also enables John Dee in his potentially global plots to destroy the minds of countless others as long as he kills Dream. A sadistic Serial Killer, the Corinthian murders many young men, torturing them and eating their eyes. Arriving at a serial killer convention, the Corinthian plots to lure Dream into a fight with the Dream Vortex Rose Walker to destroy him and inspire countless serial killers to more horrible acts.
- New: The Corinthian is a nightmare who glories in his dark nature. Helping to keep Dream of the Endless imprisoned without any care for the horrific effect on the world, the Corinthian also enables John Dee in his potentially global plot to destroy the minds of countless others as long as he kills Dream. A sadistic Serial Killer, the Corinthian murders many young men by torturing them and eating their eyes, inspiring generations of other murderers to follow in his footsteps. Arriving at a convention for these fellow serial killers, the Corinthian plots to lure Dream into a fight with the Dream Vortex, Rose Walker, to destroy his former master and twist the Dreaming through the depraved desires of his followers, all while risking the end of the waking world through Rose's continued existence.
The Dragon
So, on YMMV.A Twisted Tale, someone added Syndrome again. I checked back 5 days in the proposal thread from when it was added and couldn't find "Syndrome" on any page. I also looked in Monster.Disney, and the section for A Twisted Tale did not have Syndrome listed, nor did Monster.Literature, under N-S for "Syndrome" or under T-Z for "A Twisted Tale" (nor A-C in case of an error). Searching for Syndrome and Monster mostly gave the last time he was added without approval.
I'd like to verify if that case was approved or not (did I just miss something?) EDIT: Because either way, some action is needed: either adding him to the Disney page, or removing him from the YMMV page.
Edited by AuraGuardian on May 8th 2024 at 1:10:30 PM
Nope, not approved
Though if he was approved his entry would be on Disney
Edited by Agentofchaos on May 8th 2024 at 12:10:33 PM
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
Lizzid people!
It wasn't approved.
Also if it was approved it wouldn't have been over 500 words long, an entry being 300 words is considered the upper limit on length
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
I'm dropping by to say that the latest volume of Murena came out a few weeks ago and Tigellinus gets nothing resembling to a redemption arc.
Basically, on Nero's order, he has Piso's conspirators imprisonned and tortured for confessions which eventually leads to many innocent people suffering the same fate. For the sake of it, he frames Murena for treason but as Nero forbids him to torture him, he instead threaten to remove the teeth of Piso's sister one by one. When Murena "confesses", Tigellinus spares the woman... and hands her off to his Depraved Dwarf as a sex slave. He also privately says that he feeds Nero's paranoia just to manipulate him.
May I update?
Not the Eye
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Corinthian expansion
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Go for it.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Like, there are a few that may go above (Ultron comes to mind), but definitely not whatever the heck this is:
- Suddenly Super: Syndrome is far more monstrous by a mile that makes his film self look like an sheer angel by comparison. Where he has captured both Mr. Incredible and Elastigirl and has them held captive in his Nigel Lair on Nomanisan Island. He orders his loyal minion Mirage to kidnap the now orphaned Violet, Dash and Jack-Jack and sends a team of his loyal guards in case they resisted which he orders Mirage to kill them anyways when they break their cover and attack them that traumatizes the kids. Upon arriving on Nomanisan Island, Syndrome hires the now anxiety confused Violet into being a Super against her will by using his life story of being her father's biggest fan while telling them their parents are dead that breaks them down. He begins training Violet on how to use and control her Invisibility and Force Field powers by having her fight his Omnidroids which immediately brutalizes and tortures her to the point that she considers killing herself. Not wanting to lose his newest sidekick too soon, he offers her little brother Dash a shot to prove himself as a Super and to show Violet if she's really capable of being the Super her parents wants her to be by outright forcing her to save her little brother's life, which convinces Violet to continue her training if she and her brothers are to make it out alive. Upon telling Violet her parents were killed by the Mastermind who has the Nullifier, a device that he covets so much that can give people superpowers or take them away, Syndrome tries to corrupt Violet into being his ward by having her use her powers for rage and aggression directed at the Mastermind in order for his Evil Plan of using Violet against her parents to work (whom he plans to de-power) and give the world superpowers while the old guard are dead. However the Mastermind proves to be the villian that starts Syndrome's downfall when during her battle with Violet, she tells Violet the truth about her boss and that Syndrome has them held captive. While Frozone arrives to free Mr. Incredible and Elastigirl and go into hiding when he has his niece Lucy trick the madman into thinking she's the Mastermind. Syndrome slowly starts to unravel into a true monster and drops the ruse when he tries turning Violet into his own image and uses an evil making machine on her and which nearly works, only for Violet to fight off the attempt with Dash (who is forced to fight against his own sister), Jack-Jack and Mirage's help. He then attacks the apartment Lucius lives in and immediately de-powers Mr. Incredible, Elastigirl and Frozone as he orders his Omnidroid to brutalize them while threatening to give the kidnapped Lucy powers to become a Super. When he gets thwarted by his own minion Mirage betraying him and Violet and Dash faking a Face–Heel Turn to swipe back the Nullifier. Syndrome flees and goes after Jack-Jack and becomes terrified when he's attacked by the superpowered baby and is finally put out of his misery for good when Violet whom he has abused under his care, kills him after he threatened to repeat what he started, an act that grants Syndrome a victory even in death as his murder at Violet's hands traumatizes her for life.
I’ll take a potato chip… and EAT IT!
Late, but I’m going to vote keep for Dr. Kook, per Mermaid’s points.
In honor of Akira Toriyama
So Rayse’s writeup has a bunch of issues, and his EP was...not good and has a lot of errors. He keeps (currently), but he was not thoroughly covered. This will be long given that there's a lot to go over and to correct.
- The Stormlight Archive: Rayse, the Vessel of the Shard of Odium, is a stern, tyrannical man who made it his mission to hunt down and sunder the other Shardborn. Heedless of who gets in his way, Rayse is willing to burn entire worlds to shatter the rest, having murdered those seen as "The Almighty" in the process while sowing his dark influence on worlds to create war and bloodshed until he can conquer or raze it to nothing. On the world where the series is set, Rayse's influence is responsible for the mental lobotomies and enslavement of the Parshendi race, the massive wars and the corruption of many others with his own Fused being little more than slaves he will send to eternal damnation for failure. Arriving himself, Rayse intends to slaughter everything in the world until all that is left are him and his own twisted armies, a process he will repeat through the cosmos.
A bit of a note on what to call him, Shard Vessels get called by the name of their shard, which would be Odium, however to avoid confusion since the Shard Odium itself is its own thing, and there’s Rayse’s successor, Taravangian, also going by Odium now, just going to refer to the two Shard Vessels by their names, and only the Shard as Odium.
So first to start with some things that aren't quite right, or just straight up wrong:
- It is ridiculously inaccurate to say Rayse was responsible for the lobotomy and enslavement of the Parshendi. That happened midway through the time he was sealed away. It was caused by accident when a subordinate tried to connect to the Singers, only to get sealed by human forces, causing the Singers minds to break. Not wanting to waste all these now obedient creatures they had, humanity opted to enslave them. It was Rayse’s lack of presence that caused this, and when he comes back he actually connects to the Singers, giving them their intelligence back and allowing them to escape slavery.
- If you're wondering if this is redeeming, it's not. He only wants the Singers to build a power base with, and doesn’t care about them. Also many of his actions make it clear Rayse is no friend to the Singers. He's pretty much responsible for every other problem they face.
- Also to note a terminology error in the writeup, and to define these terms since they’ll come up later, Parshedi is an Alethi word for a group of a race the Alethi call Parsh, whose proper name is the Singers, and the Parshendi are a group of Singers who call themselves the Listeners, who defected and did not connect during the False Desolation, making them the only Singers who were not lobotomized and enslaved. The Listeners then made their own civilization in isolation.
- Also while the Fused are pretty much slaves, there’s no mention of Rayse eternally torturing them for failure, he resurrects them endlessly, although the process of ressurection is not fun, but not because Rayse made it so. Eternal damnation comes out when they try to defect, not fail. It's also not clear if he's ever done this more than the one occasion we see.
- The writeup overstates Rayse’s influence on planets outside Roshar. We only know of two he influenced, outside of the Rosharan system where Stormlight takes place, and only by collateral damage, one not badly at all, one VERY badly, with no mention of him starting wars or influencing people there. Basically Rayse just wanted to kill the Shards there, did, and left. It's unclear if he even had subordinates before Roshar, since its noted that Rayse was shifting to subtler methods because of him becoming the Shardic equivalent of Dented Iron after his fights. It's only in Roshar where we see him influence people and start wars.
- Rayse dying and not being the Big Bad of the Cosmere is probably the biggest plot twist in the whole thing, so Disc-One Final Boss should probably not be his name pothole. Satanic Archetype doesn't have spoilers, and also describes his character.
- "The Almighty" is weirdly highlighted, as only Honor was called that (who Rayse did kill), and the name has no particular significance to Rayse.
Also I just want to note Rayse’s characterization. The writeup only frames him as a crazed Omnicidal Maniac, which while not completely incorrect, isn’t quite right. The Shard Odium is like that (in a sense, as its a force of nature), but Rayse isn't. He's a lot more pragmatic and is majorly Faux Affably Evil, with a sliver tongue. Additionally the EP said he was barred from Roshar when he was barred on Roshar, to prevent him from attacking the Greater Cosmere. The writeup framing him as purely as an uninhibited oncoming storm, and not a Sealed Evil in a Can entity scheming his way out. While this is a minor error, what is not is that the writeup states his goal is to wipe out all life on Roshar, which is directly contradicted by Rayse himself, when he and the de-facto Big Good Dalinar are negotiating terms for a Combat by Champion to end the war between their two factions.
Rhythm of War, Chapter 112
- Rayse: Do you know why I make men fight, Dalinar? Why I created the Thrill? Why I encourage the wars?Dalinar: To destroy us.Rayse: Why would I want to destroy you? I am your god, Dalinar. I need soldiers. For the true battle that is coming, not one for one people or one miserable windswept continent. A battle for the gods. A battle for everything. Roshar is a training ground. The time will come that I unleash you upon the others who are not nearly as well trained. Not nearly as hardened as I have made you.[...]Rayse: If your champion wins, I will step away for a thousand years. I will retreat to Braize, and I will no longer speak to, contact, or influence the Fused or Voidspren. But I cannot contain them. And you will have to pray that your descendants are as lucky as you are, as I will be less...lenient when I return. [Dalinar goes to speak, Rayse interrupts] Let me finish, in exchange for you giving up one thing you wanted note , I will give up my grand plans for Roshar. I will leave this planet for a thousand years, and abandon all I've worked for here. I give you and the singers freedom to make your own peace. Freedom for you, and freedom for me. This is all I ask for my victory: As you represent Honor, you can relax his prohibitions for me. No matter what happens in the contest, you never have to worry about me again. All I want is away from this miserable system.
So in summary Rayse is Despotism Justifies the Means type villain, not an Omnicidal Maniac, let alone having specific intent to slaughter everything on Roshar. He's literally willing to abandon it without salvaging anything, because being stuck in one place has a tendency to stall plans of galactic conquest.
Also a note on the negotiation, he is being completely truthful about his terms, but this is purely pragmatic. This is purely pragmatic as he needs a magical contract like the one being negotiated for what's sealing him in the Rosharan system to be removed, and for that to work both parties need to understand completely the terms, and breaking those terms can result in lethal consequences, even for a god like Rayse. Also he uses every tactic in the book to try and bully his way into the most favorable terms.
Now for the actual main reason for this, while Rayse did not turn out to be the Big Bad, he was still given the deeds of one. And one of those Big Bads.To put it simply the current writeup is a bit vague and undersells Rayse, when it could get a lot more visceral and explicit. This will be long.
- Rayse went to the planet Sel, and killed the two shards there, Devotion and Dominion, shattering their power so it couldn't be used ever again, and in the process turning Sel's cognitive realm into a hellish storm.
- Don't know if this should be described in detail, as while its plot relevant, the incident isn't the most heinous. While torching Sel's cognitive realm makes it exceptionally difficult for people to get there (planetary travel is done through the cognitive realm), it didn't effect the people living on the planet proper that much. Sel's one of the most earth like planets in the Cosmere, which has quite a few Death Worlds, with thriving civilizations.
- Rayse fought the Shard Ambition over Threnody, the Shard Mercy joined in as well...in some way. The battle twisted everything on Thernody, Ambition fled, and Rayse finished her off somewhere else.
- This should be explicitly described on the writeup. While there's still a lot unexplained about it, such as anything to do with Mercy's involvement, Rayse is treated as the primary initiator, and Threnody has a serious contention for biggest Death World in the Cosmere thanks a whole novella detailing how bad it is...despite not showing the absolute worst parts of the planet, and this fight is to blame for that. It's the go to horror-story in the Cosmere when describing how destructive Shards can be, and why Rayse should never be allowed to leave Roshar.
- And this is just the place where Ambition was mortally wounded. We don't know what happened to the place where they died.
- Rayse turns up in the Rosharan system, to kill Honor and Cultivation. He makes himself the god of the planet Ashyn, where humans lived, and manipulates one into dangerous experiments with Surges. This goes wrong, as Rayse planned, and turns Ashyn into a Death World. Very few humans still live on Ashyn, and many have to flee to the planet Roshar, where the Singers, who worshiped Honor and Cultivation, live.
- Just to note that the timeline before Rayse arrives in the Rosharan system is very unclear, and hasn't been fully explained, there will likely be reveals of Rayse doing things in between Threnody and Roshar.
- It's not been completely explained what happened next, other than that war broke out between Humans and Singers. The Singers lost, and humans became the dominant species on Roshar. Somehow Shard allegiances swapped, as Honor and Cultivation began supporting humans, while the furious Singers went to Rayse, who offered revenge for what the humans did. The most elite Singers became the Fused.
- It's not particularly clear if Rayse started the war. He probably did, and either way he was the reason humans were there to start a conflict.
- This and the previous point are the inciting incident of the Stormlight Archive, they should be described directly in the writeup.
- The Fused don't have it to well. There are always resurrected, losing a bit of their sanity each time. Some have only minor effects, but some of gone completely insane. We see one Fused put a lot of effort to find a way to make themselves Deader than Dead so they don't inevitably those their mind eventually. And of course Resignations Not Accepted under penalty of eternal torture...though its important to note again, that its not clear if Rayse has ever done that any time other than the one Fused defection we see. Also for the Fused to resurrect, every time they must take the body of a Singer, kill them in the process.
- Then comes the Desolations, when Rayse waged war on humanity, and therefore Honor and Cultivation. Each one was a war several years long, with horrific damage. One account we get after a Desolation mentions a kingdom who took the brunt of the assault lose ninety percent of its population, several other kingdoms got wiped off the map, nearly every family had lost half its members, and civilization was on the verge of collapse. This is pretty typical for a Desolation, and there were a bit more than a dozen of them. The damage accrued over time and the once pre-industrial civilizations had been sent back to the stone age by the end.
- A note on how Desolations started and ended. The Heralds sealed him away to end them, and to break his seal Rayse tortured them until they gave in and released him, which could be centuries. The Heralds eventually gave up and left one of their own, Taln, who had never given in, to seal Rayse by himself. It took Rayse 4500 years to find another way to unseal himself, but that isn't from a lack of torturing Taln that whole time. Taln pretty much an Empty Shell by the time of the series.
- The most uniquely horrible crime Rayse has, and plot relevant. Very notable omission on the current writeup.
- During this time he was able to get release one of his Unmade, Nergaoul, onto Roshar. It has the effect of turning everyone in its vicinity into a rampaging brute. The Alethi got a particularly notable exposure that resulted in them gaining "The Thrill" in battle, which has the effect of basically making intense combat addictive. The results are predictable.
- At the start of the series a subordinate, Ulim, schemes to send the Listeners into a war with the Alethi, before tricking them into taking forms of power than brainwash them into summoning the Everstorm, and therefore Odium. It's not clear how much Rayse had to do with Ulim's schemes, but Rayse definitely did use the Everstorm, which he directly controls to wipe out the Listeners, because they were Singers with a culture independent of him, and he can't have that. The few survivors were rounded up and "rewarded" by being used as vessels for the Fused. Rayse spare one, Venli, to spread the word amongst the newly un-lobotmised Singer of the Listeners "noble sacrifice". When she starts going through the motions Rayse puts Venli of a vision of her being slowly vaporized by a star, with fully simulated pain, to make sure she knows she needs to propagandize better.
- This is a very uniquely heinous series of events, (I'm just waiting for Ulim's arc to be over before I propose him, entirely because of this) that should be described at least partially in the writeup. In particular this is only one of three explicit genocides in the Cosmere, and one of those was stopped before it really got going, while the other was only described as part of the backstory.
- The Everstorm sweeps across and devastates Roshar. Grain silos are taken out, leaving many places on the verge of famine. The city of Thaylenah goes from a Shining City to looking like an active warzone, with explicit on-screen casualties.
- While Rayse frees the Singers, he promptly has them all forced into serving him, and has an quisling Alethkar army attack Thaylenah under the Thrill to demonstrate his power to the Singers, and how grand it is to serve him.
- Dalinar comes out to negotiate a contest of champions to end the war (not the one I quoted), with Dalinar fighting Rayse's champion, Rayse being the honorable fellow that he is selects Dalinar to be his champion, and tries to Mind Raping Dalinar into joining Odium, the pain so intense that Dalinar ripping off his fingernails is not enough to distract his mind. In particular Rayse focuses on Dalinar's painful memories of war crimes he committed under the Thrill, specifically one time Dalinar accidentally burned his own wife, as well as a bunch of children, to death, with Rayse trying to convince Dalinar that since those acts were influenced by the Thrill, they are Rayse's fault not Dalinar...which would means that Dalinar has no agency and is therefore a slave of Rayse.
- This one's really notable characterization-wise for Rayse, as he had previously gone about how he was the best god as only he truly understood emotions, with this incident making it clear that Rayse's "understanding" effectively means that everyone is a mindless slave to fight and die for him. Also when Dalinar resists, Rayse drops if faux affability and flips his shit, shouting at the Fused to kill Dalinar, the first time Rayse's mask slips, and his affability becomes noticeably thinner afterwards in all following scenes.
- Sore after his loss, Rayse goes to negotiate with Taravangian, who is trying to trick Rayse into binding himself so that he can't hurt Roshar, and Rayse promptly begin to bully Taravangian, revealing that he sees right through his plan, and getting Taravangian to go from wanting to bargain for Roshar's safety to just his home city's safety, only given Taravangian that because he makes an argument that he might be useful.
- This one's plot relevant, but it doesn't have Rayse do much heinous beyond acting like an extremely petty jackass.
- While Rayse had agreed to a contest of champions, and therefore needs to hold a negotiation, there's no time limit so Rayse doesn't come to the table, dragging the war out for a year while he tries to get himself the most favorable conditions to negotiate. It isn't until a gambit of having the main armies of the heroes distracted, throwing away Taravangian in the process, to try and seize their main capital while they're gone, fails, (the Fused defection happens here) alongside Dalinar growing in power, that Rayse comes negotiate purely out of fear.
- He also had another instance of Mind Rape when he targeted the chronically depressed Kaladin to be his champion, giving him hellish nightmares that specifically preyed upon all of Kaladin's worst fears. This goes on for a good bit, and is shown explicitly as Kaladin has the most POV segments of any character in the series.
- During the negotiation its made clear Rayse will drag the war on forever if he doesn't get something he wants. It's ultimately agreed that if Rayse wins, he gets Dalinar's soul to be used as his champion in conquest. Rayse doesn't get to act on much else, given he dies is the literal next chapter.
- Also while the writeup is not completely accurate in giving Rayse omnicidal goals, it made very clear that he's got very destructive plans for the Cosmere is he ever escapes Roshar. One text passage particularly sells how heinous they are:
- Odium still intended to use all of humankind as his frontline troops, once he won Roshar. He would throw their lives away, turn them into slaves focused on fueling his war with the heavens. [...] This would be a drawn out nightmare of slavery, blood, and death.
So in summary Rayse is the most heinous in the Cosmere, full stop, and is one of two villains in the Cosmere, the other being the Lord Ruler, who I would consider to go beyond just bad enough to qualify, and are truly exceptional in their heinousness, and I don't think the current writeup quite gets that across.
Also I do want to touch on some potential redeeming traits, since his EP only addressed whether he has agency. Rayse is truly faux affable, with Baddie Flattery and acting like a father figure. he also has things like offering Dalinar a waterskin after Rayse shows him the true extent of Odium, or calling one Fused an old friend. but he's highly manipulative, wants to be worshiped, seemingly doesn't do equal relationships, and is very condescending. He also bluntly threatens to kill that Fused when they question his decisions. Not to mention Rayse's affability drops quick when things don't go his way. Rayse also does build an actually functional and decent civilization for the freed Singers, which gets legitimate, non-fanatical, loyalty from some of them, but as I mentioned this is just pragmatic building of a power base, and the Singers are nothing more than a resource to Rayse. Additionally, what happened to the Listeners, and his reaction to Fused defecting shows he will remove Singers if they stray from what he wants them to be. Overall he's very delusional and manipulative, and at his core just wants to rule over everyone, but this still needs to be explained in the writeup since these are things that might seem redeeming at first glance that are very prominent in his characterization.
And finally...I don't actually have a new writeup because between the sheer amount of crimes with uniquely heinous details, and as well as there being potential redeeming traits needing to be addressed in the writeup, it will be a very long writeup. Furthermore, Rayse still has a lot about him that has not been explored, in particular I noted several places where his crimes have not been fully explained yet, meaning he will likely need an expansion, possibly even significant expansion. With that I'm not sure specifically what should go on the writeup, whilst still leaving room to expand, and the reason for all this, beyond making sure this thread has a better understanding of the character, is to ask for advice on how to handle this.
One last thing I just want to note, is that just because Rayse is dead, does not mean its the last we hear about him, and aside from more crimes, he could be potentially given redeeming features. Something that particularly comes to mind is that the aforementioned Lord Ruler appeared to be close to this trope when he died, only for him to be gradually revealed to be essentially a sympathetic Anti-Hero, entirely posthumously. While I don't think Rayse will gets something quite so dramatic, there are a couple of scenes that hint at sympathetic Hidden Depths. Just wanted to note that I'm asking for help on a character that could have to go in when Book 5 comes out in December.
Not familiar with the above but looking over parts of Dracula I think his writeup could be updated a bit to match the typical one listing out crimes as they're committed chronologically and I think the ending could be altered since the rest of it already sells him as not being sympathetic.
Current:
- Dracula: Count Dracula himself is the Trope Codifier for the modern vampire. A hideous, blood-sucking monster, Dracula commits a number of crimes over the course of the novel, including keeping Jonathan Harker prisoner and trying to drive him insane; kidnapping a baby to feed to his fellow vampires, before sending wolves to kill the mother when she demands her baby back; driving his own servant, Renfield, to madness; sending a wolf after Lucy Westenra and her mother to gain entry to her house before draining her blood and turning her into a vampire (killing Lucy's mother through sheer fear at the wolf's appearance in the process); and turning Wilhelmina "Mina" Harker into a vampire to uncover his enemies' plans against him. Dracula ultimately plans to move to England so that he can feast on the people of London to his heart's content. Overall, the vampire Count is an undead abomination devoid of humanity and worthy of no sympathy.
Suggested:
- Dracula: Count Dracula himself is the monstrous Trope Codifier for the modern vampire villain. A hideous, blood-sucking monster, Dracula has spent years plaguing the Transylvania countryside, at one point feeding an infant to his vampiric "brides" before having the child's grieving mother torn apart by wolves. Luring the attorney Johnathan Harker to his castle so he may use the latter's legal knowledge to purchase English property, Dracula then imprisons Jonathan and attempts to drive him mad. Abusing his own human servant Renfield to the point of insanity, Dracula makes his way to the England where he begins attacking the country, plotting to use it as a new feeding ground to his heart's content. Sending a wolf after Lucy Westerna and her mother, killing Lucy's mother and forcibly turning Lucy herself into a vampire. Dracula later vampirizes Jonathan's fiancée Wilhelmina "Mina" to uncover his enemies' plans against him, a beast in the skin of a man interested in nothing but slaking his literal thirst for blood.
Thoughts?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Works for me.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Caesar
Love the rewrite!
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Ultimate Moral Compass
Dracula rewrite
Should I just try and do a rewrite for Rayse?
Current mood: sick of your shit
Drac rewrite, just looks like one typo where it says "Dracula makes his way to the England where he begins attacking the country".
Whoops! Thanks for catching and I’ll let Adam zap that.
Gentle Laborer
Corinthian expansion, and cut Von Kook
Hey, the final Red vs. Blue installment just released, so I’m going to go ahead and reserve discussion for it.
to the Dracula rewrite
Since a couple people on the proposal thread were behind this I made Sandbox.Monster Alex Rider, any thoughts on the layout?
Also here is a potential header:
Alex Rider is a Teen Superspy who's faced many dangerous villains over the years, with these being the worst of the worst.
REALITY IS AN ILLUSION, THE UNIVERSE IS A HOLOGRAM, BUY GOLD BYEEEE! | She/Her
My bad Emma, I have trouble keeping up sometimes but I agree and having gotten the chance to understand the work and villains more, I'm going to cast an official cut vote.