Vindicated by History cleanup thread

To be fair, that's the opinions of the people looking up specific clips from that movie. We need a more consistent good rating to say for sure.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I believe that you guys are missing the bit where the video I posted has over 100 million views. That's a massive number of people searching, commenting and liking the movie. I would get it if it was something under one million views, but that's not the case here. It's one of the most watched MCU clips.

Youtube is a legitimate source for audience reactions. I believe that trying to gatekeep reactions to "legitimate" sources like Unfortunate Implications does only hurts our work as a wiki.

Edited by Edgar81539 on Jul 24th 2022 at 10:59:50 AM

Honestly, I'm very skeptical on calling Man of Steel Vindicated by History, because so much of the positive commentary I see on Henry Cavill in DC films in general is along the lines of "he'd make a great Superman, I just wish they'd let him be one". Can't really speak to The Incredible Hulk, though.

The thing about this is that GoT Fan Myopia was legitimately a major force in propelling the wider popularity of fantasy epics with a high focus on political intrigue. I can't tell you how many times I got vocally sick of seeing "like Game of Thrones but X" for anything in that particular sub-genre (especially if it was Darker and Edgier) before its credibility self-immolated with the final season. And FFXII is one of the cases where I kind of feel that shows insofar as the localization made the script heavily Shakespearian because that was the only really mass-cultural analogue at the time, which I feel like wouldn't have been the case if it came out today.

(Although it's kind of weird that it's namechecked for XII but not Tactics, which I feel like is even more of a case of that.)

I think I'll cut the Stormblood example. A cursory glance at the game's subreddit tells me that it's still considered the weakest expansion even if it's not hated per se, and that it has a mixed reception at best. Also the entry doesn't really list any redeeming qualities that people found in the expansion and instead just says "well some people liked it."

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 25th 2022 at 4:10:16 AM

pee pee poo poo

I feel like many of these examples amount to "the hate has died down" rather than it being seen as any better. And I agree that Youtube comments are not a good guide, I know that any cartoon OP or music video is likely to have top-voted comments saying "cartoons/songs were so much better back then" regardless of which time period they are from. I suspect it's selection effects of who looks up these videos combined with the fact that it's mostly those who really liked them who go to the comments.

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.

So, yeah, the Hulk scenes have millions of views... but way less likes and comments. That's why YouTube isn't a great way to get a sample of the fandom, especially since the dislike bar was removed.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

The Final Fantasy X YMMV page has a better Vindicated by History write-up:

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Vindicated by History: At the time of its release, X was well-received by fans but became the source of a lot of ridicule due to things like the voice acting, story, characters and setting, as well as the lack of freedom (especially in the later half). For many years, it was subject to a hardline Broken Base that either adored it or despised it, with the game's flaws bringing plenty of mockery from its detractors. Years later, many detractors reevaluated their assessment of the game and found the more nuanced story and characters, as well as the gameplay innovations, as refreshingly unique (and, in many ways, ahead of their time).^note For example, the lack of a pilotable airship was criticized for the removal of immersion, as well as adding more linearity to a game that already had plenty. However, since then, Fast Travel has easily become a must-have feature to avoid tiresome backtracking, making the destination menu in FFX seem less out of place and even innovative for its time. The fact that X was, in many ways, the last "traditional" Final Fantasy compared to the games after helped to win over both former detractors and curious new fans that started with the HD version. Over time, perception shifted whereas praise replaced mockery as the default reaction to the game, earning it a spot as one of the most well-received entries in the series, with a poll in 2020 flat out having it voted the best game in the series.

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I may just replace the "voice acting" entry on the page with this.

pee pee poo poo

I just wanted to say thanks for making a cleanup thread for this. I think it's definitely needed.

I remember about a year ago, someone tried adding Finding Nemo to VindicatedByHistory.Animated Films. You know, the movie that was the highest grossing animated film at the time of its release, has a 99% critic score on Rotten Tomatoes, and is the best-selling DVD of all time in the US. (the entry was removed a while ago, so you don't need to look for it)

Speaking of VindicatedByHistory.Animated Films, I found these 2 entries:

• Pocahontas downplays it. When it came out in 1995, while a significant hit, it marked the decline in Disney's success. The general public was starting to grow tired of the Princess movies, and Pocahontas had the bad luck to be the first Disney film released after the mega hit that was The Lion King. These days, while not exactly respected, its fans are growing and it has a nostalgic value to many who loved it when they were children. In comparison to some of Disney's worse offerings that came afterwards, general consensus is that it's far from their worst film. There are numerous fans of its stunning animation, award-winning songs and An Aesop that some feel is a good one.

• Mulan is a downplayed example; it wasn't unpopular or outright panned when it first released in 1998, and had generally positive reception, but it was never considered one of the "best" like The Lion King or Beauty and the Beast and was by and large considered So Okay, It's Average by critics—good, but not great. Its underperformance in China and liberal Artistic License with Chinese culture were also considered marks against it by Chinese reviewers. The controversies surrounding its live-action remake and the criticisms of its changes to the story, however, have made some critics reappraise the original more favorably for its strong Character Development of the heroine and themes about overcoming societal expectations. It helps that it—unlike the remake—had some Asian creatives on staff, most prominently Chinese-American head writer Rita Hsiao.

For starters, I'm not really sure if VBH can be "downplayed". Second, while Mulan might count if we allow "this was generally well received then and is even more loved now" examples, I think Pocahontas' reception remains way too divisive for it to be considered vindicated.

Edited by toonyloon on Jul 25th 2022 at 11:09:44 AM

Another example I saw on that page, very recently added for reasons that'll be clear:

• Buzz Lightyear of Star Command: The Adventure Begins, the first spin-off of Toy Story's Buzz was mainly seen as Direct to Video fluff when it debuted, with Entertainment Weekly even giving the film a D+. While others who saw the film and watched the following series as kids liked it, the animated film still never garned much mainstream appeal compared to the Toy Story films and Disney themselves eventually disowned it when Pixar decided to make "the real story" of Buzz with 2022's Lightyear. Yet due to the mixed reaction and the underperformance of the new film which goes for a Darker and Edgier Interstellar-esque tone, removing the Raygun Gothic and wacky sci-fi adventure aspects from Buzz (which is what a lot of fans liked about him in the first place) among several other controversial changes, the Star Command film has gotten far more praise. Its surprisingly tongue-in-cheek humor, embracement of interesting alien characters and worlds and especially its voice cast with Wayne Knight as Zurg and not to mention a returning Tim Allen as Buzz, has all placed Star Command in a better light to fans than Lightyear which lacks those said elements with its grounded human-focused story and to a portion of the fanbase's annoyance recast Tim Allen with Chris Evans.

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This feels like one of those reactionary examples. Not in the political sense, but this was clearly written as a way to also dunk on Lightyear by comparison, as much of it's comparing the two in a very Franchise Original Sin way. I dunno if this makes the example fully invalid, but it does seem like a sneaky loophole around having "recent" examples, where another film is vindicated due to recent events around another, similar film.

(The troper also once tried adding Tangled to the page, which had the Finding Nemo problem of being beloved and successful from the start, thus not actually being vindicated.)

Edited by harryhenry on Jul 26th 2022 at 12:43:01 PM

I was considering bringing up Pocahontas here. Yes, I agree that the movie is too divisive to truly be Vindicated by History—there are still harsh criticisms of the movie today (such as Lindsay Ellis's video). I'd at least cut that one.

As for Mulan, that movie has always been popular. I think that too can be cut.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jul 26th 2022 at 5:27:37 AM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Wasn't that also a reactionary example of the same kind? I vaguely remember someone making an example like that just to dunk on Frozen, but it might have been for another trope instead and I don't remember the troper's name.

I remember when I first checked out the Vindicated by History page, and I thought it was a bit wholesome to read about media that gained recognition after some time. But after reading it again a couple more times, it starts to feel... Well, I don't know if "badge of honor" is the right word for it. But it definitely feels like some entries are trying to make the media a lot better than it actually is.

Double Post: Also, did the troper who tried to add Finding Nemo ever explained why they considered it such in spite of its critical and commercial success? Then again, I'm guessing it was part of the original entry, though I wonder how many of those points were valid.

Looking at the edit history, the troper who added it didn't give a reason. They only gave this writeup:

While Finding Nemo was never regarded as bad, many critics initially regarded it as a disappointment compared to Pixar's usual fare. Now it's not only near-unanimously regarded as one of the greatest animated movies ever made, but has easily eclipsed all Pixar's prior movies in acclaim except arguably Toy Story.

Also, while I have not seen Lightyear, that Star Command entry really feels complain-y to the former. It also highlights a minor trend I noticed, where people sometimes use a positive trope/reaction to diss on a work other than the main subject.

The Nemo shoehorn kinda reminds me of the shoehorns in And You Thought It Would Fail, which are mostly added as a way to get back against "haters" in other social media or in here. Tropes like VBH and AYTIWF are sometimes seen as "badges of honor" by the troper adding them, no matter if the work actually fits the trope. Which is why the shoehorns are extremely common for Disney and Nintendo-based works.

Speaking of Nintendo shoehorns, there's this on VindicatedByHistory.Video Games...

• Super Mario World was always a high-selling and well-received game, but within its generation, the game wasn't yet considered an instant classic. On its release, it was criticized for being very little of an improvement from the previous Super Mario Bros. 3. It was also overlooked by many due to the then-recent debut of Sega's Sonic the Hedgehog on the Sega Genesis, which in its marketing heavily capitalized on the game's faster speed and more colorful graphics in comparison to Super Mario World, which made the game look much more pedestrian in its presentation to the general public. As the years went by, people began to see that its depth was then-unheard of for a platformer, as the game had many alternate routes, secret levels, and a bit of puzzle solving. The controls were also recognized as being much smoother than its NES predecessors, and the game was also recognized for introducing the popular Yoshi to the world. The game also became the focal point for an entire community of ROMhackers making custom levels and content for the game. Nowadays, Super Mario World is considered not only one of the greatest Mario games and one of the best platformers ever, but one of the greatest games of all time.

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If it "was always a high-selling and well-received game" then it doesn't really count as this trope.

I can see why it would be overshadowed by Sonic at the time, but since it was still successful back then, I don't really see it as that trope.

RE: The Star Command example, so should we cut it or not? It feels like it could be valid, but the entry as-is is way too rooted in complaining about Lightyear for it to work.

I think this thread is a great initiative. That said I have a pet peeve against Reviews Are the Gospel so I'm not thrilled if it devolves into "X doesn't count because one popular youtuber gave a negative review". but yeah I agree Pocahontas isn't this because it was divisive then and is still divisive now.

I was going to bring this up in my next write-up. Yeah I don't think it counts. The only people who really bashed Super Mario World were Sega fans during the 16-bit console wars. Yes Sonic was eating into Mario's popularity but World was still critically acclaimed and was a best seller. Nintendo fans always loved this game. So yeah cut it.

Aside from the Lightyear-bashing in the entry which definitely needs to go away, I don't remember the Star Command cartoon ever being particularly hated. Does anyone else?

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 27th 2022 at 9:22:48 AM

pee pee poo poo

I think there's a hint of Critical Dissonance in the example as written ("typical direct-to-video fare", the D+ review grade), but I dunno if that's enough. I get the sense the actual audience liked it.

Mega Man Battle Network 6: Cybeast Gregar and Cybeast Falzar has this entry:

• Battle Network 6 was not treated well at launch. It was the last game in a franchise nosediving in the wake of Battle Network 4's poor reception and general over-saturation due to annualization. It also released on GBA a couple years after the DS had been on the market, making the game old hat. Critics were tired of Battle Network and their scores were mixed. However, 6 is now remembered fondly by fans as an underrated classic and a fitting Grand Finale to the franchise, and it is typically viewed as being at least on par with the fan-favorite Battle Network 3. In fact, the games are even the exact same rating on Gamefaqs!

I believe the work didn't become more popular as time went on. In reality, it was met with a lukewarm reception by critics, whereas fans loved it from the get-go, as can be verified from these 2006 reviews on GameFaqs. Wikipedia also states that the game had solid sales. Should this entry be changed to Critical Dissonance?

Edited by TantaMonty on Jul 27th 2022 at 8:42:51 AM

From YMMV.Super Mario World 2 Yoshis Island:

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• Vindicated by History: While Yoshi's Island has always been critically acclaimed since release, it was largely overshadowed by the more hyped-up Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest at the time. Yoshi's Island is now considered to be one of the greatest games of the 16-bit era.

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Based on the Super Mario World example brought up earlier, this probably doesn't count as VBH given that it was critically acclaimed from the outset and simply got overshadowed by another title (and it doesn't count as an Acclaimed Flop either given that it sold over four million copies around the world).

Be kind.

Here is my second write-up:

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The Legend of Zelda The Legend of Zelda series suffers from a perpetually Broken Base, making the application of this type of reaction problematic due to the lack of clear consensus at any given time. There is an interesting phenomenon known as the "Zelda Cycle": Whenever a new Zelda game is released on a home console, the fanbase almost universally hates it, while the previous game (which was hated just as much up until this point) is now suddenly praised as a masterpiece. In September 2013, series producer Eiji Aonuma and Nintendo president Satoru Iwata expressed their awareness of this phenomenon.

• On the NES, Zelda II: The Adventure of Link is a funny case. At the time it was released it was well liked - games were mostly expected to be Nintendo Hard at that point in time, and it was believed that Mission Pack Sequels wouldn't sell so nobody minded the divergent side-scrolling playstyle. However, it was followed by The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, which not only returned to the original gameplay style, but is considered one of the greatest entries in the entire series. With all future 2D entries sticking to that gameplay as well, it soon became known as a terrible and incredibly hard Oddball in the Series. However, by the early 2010s, many gamers with a renewed interest or nostalgia for The 8 Bit Era Of Console Video Games began to appreciate the game for its many innovative ideas, some of which had started to reemerge in newer Zelda games. Additionally, with the new wellspring of appreciation for newer Nintendo Hard games such as I Wanna Be the Guy and Dark Souls, Zelda II's difficulty is seen by a certain kind of gamer as less of a crippling flaw than a point of merit. Shigeru Miyamoto has even said that he'd like to see the game remade one day. Popularity Polynomial
• The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask had the poor luck of being a follow-up to Ocarina of Time, one of the most critically beloved games of all time. Its reception was mostly lukewarm, with the chief complaints about the game being that it recycled graphics from its predecessor and its shortness, with a mere four dungeons, and for a long time it was mostly known as "the weird Zelda". A decade or so later, and the fanbase for Majora's Mask had grown considerably, with many people loving the bleak, sinister atmosphere, the creative (if somewhat difficult) dungeon design, and the massive amount of sidequests.^note A certain frightening Alternate Reality Game hasn't hurt matters either. It now isn't rare to hear people call it one of their favourite installments in the franchise. I never heard of this game being hated, but then again I was too young to remember. By the time I started playing Zelda people were hailing Majora's Mask as one of the best in the series.
• The Oracle duology originally had a very low profile among the series due to being released on the Game Boy Color soon after the series' acclaimed leap to 3D with both Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. As time has gone by, both Oracle games have greatly increased in profile due to their creative selection of items, Ensemble Dark Horse villains, and surprisingly challenging dungeon and puzzle design. It's not uncommon to rank the Oracle duology alongside Link's Awakening and A Link to the Past as some of the best 2D games in the series nowadays. These games got very positive reviews upon release, I think the thing people were most critical of was that you had to buy both games to get the true ending. I'm not sure of this one, probably falls more under Acclaimed Flop
• The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker was near-universally derided by Western fans before and shortly after release. While two dungeons having been cut from the second half of the game in order to get it on shelves in a timely manner and the sailing system, which many found tedious, certainly didn't help matters, most of the hatred was aimed towards the art style. Due to a tech demo for the GameCube setting expectations and fans disliking the "kiddy stigma" that Nintendo was getting, the reveal of cel-shaded look was seen as a betrayal. The game's initial disappointment is a huge reason why Twilight Princess opted for a more dramatic and mature story combined a dark atmosphere and realistic visuals. However, the game's stylized nature has aged well compared to the more realistically styled games of the time, which came to include Twilight Princess (whose art style was a response to the criticism The Wind Waker received), and its story gradually saw increased recognition as an adept deconstruction of the franchise's premise. Nowadays, the game is generally remembered as a niche favorite, a critical darling, and an overall flawed but more than worthy entry in the series. Aonuma himself has even said that this reaction is the reason why The Wind Waker specifically was chosen to get an HD remaster on the Wii U. This is one of the most famous instances of this trope in gaming, keep.
• The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess: The general consensus at the time was to praise it as a return to the series' Ocarina-era heyday, to the point that it was the Trope Namer for Eight Point Eight for how up in arms its fans became when a magazine dared to give it a less-than-perfect score. As time wore on, however, it became the target of a certain amount of Hype Backlash and became seen as a tired re-thread of OoT's plot structure and gameplay. These days, Twilight Princess is seen favorably, particularly with its HD remaster fixing some issues like the overdone Real Is Brown atmosphere, but is still as base-breaking as almost every other game in the series. I don't remember Twilight Princess ever being hated, and even when it was most of the criticism was leveled at the graphics. Also another case of "It was liked upon release but then it became less liked upon release", except it doesn't fall under Popularity Polynomial because it didn't have a "rise" again. Would probably fit better under Hype Backlash.
• The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass was criticized for several aspects such as the Temple of the Ocean King, the touch controls and especially the way the overworld was structured. Eventually, this game, while not widely considered one of the best in the series, got a lot of retroactive praise for its creative items, puzzles, and characters. This looks good, keep
• The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks: It was praised for improving on and addressing complaints with Phantom Hourglass (like the repetitive, time-limited central dungeon), but was also criticized by some for elements like the train mechanics, implementation of the Spirit Flute, and for being similar to its predecessor. However, several factors have come to bring it into fans' good graces:
  • A stronger presence of Zelda herself, who is considered a more interesting and helpful companion character who is even Promoted to Playable.
  • A narrative that is lighthearted and tongue-in-cheek, which actually provides a resolving conclusion as a sequel to Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass (in contrast to much of the rest of the series, which is largely convoluted and contradictory).
  • A killer soundtrack, considered by many fans to be one of the best in the franchise. I think we can keep this one.
• The Legend of Zelda CD-i Games were used as You Tube Poop material for years due to the laughably bad voice acting, the Uncanny Valley of the cut scenes, and the bad controls. As time passed, people have eased up on the games; while people still view the games as bad overall, they saw the potential the gameplay had and noted that having animated cutscenes and voice acting for a video game console released in the early 1990s was pretty impressive at the time. Some people also believe that the Zelda CD-i games could have been great if more time was spent on polishing up the games as there is a fan remake that's still not great but is a marked improvement. Others believe it's quite impressive Faces of Evil and Wand of Gamelon — both made at the same time by a nobody game studio, on unfamiliar hardware, on a shoestring budget of $600,000, and completed in only a year — were completed and as playable as they were, especially when compared to some of the Obvious Beta Christmas Rushed titles that "real" studios have had the gall to put on shelves for full price in recent years. Lmao what? These games were never vindicated. They're still considered the worst games in the franchise. This entry boiled down to "it had potential" and "it was impressive for the time". Also the last sentence reeks of "AAA games industry bad". Definite cut.
• Even the original game has been subject to this. While it did get credit for starting the series, A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time got a lot more credit for shaping the conventions of the series, as they introduced the series' mythology and deeper stories to go with it, made item usage clearer, and gave proper direction for the player in what to do to proceed. For a long time, people who attempted to play the original game found it to be archaic and overly cryptic in comparison to its successors. ^note Even knowing the conventions of later Zelda games, playing the original can and WILL lead to Guide Dang It! moments, with even series director Eiji Aonuma admitting that he has never finished the game because of this. However, the seventh generation brought with it an explosion in popularity for open world games. As such, many developers and journalists have gone back to praise the original game for, despite its faults, being one of the earliest examples of a console open world game and for letting the players discover things for themselves. When looking to reinvent the series' formula after Skyward Sword, Nintendo went on to use the original game as a framework, leading to The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild. I've never heard of this. The first Zelda was considered a classic for as long as I can remember. Maybe when it reached Virtual Console on the Wii and it was played by younger people who didn't "get" it. If this really happened, it fits under Popularity Polynomial.

Sonic the Hedgehog Games in the Sonic the Hedgehog series have a tendency to gain a lot more respect about 8 to 10 years after they come out.

• As much as it's widely pointed to by Genesis-era Sonic fans as the pinnacle of the hedgehog's career, it may surprise some that Sonic 3 & Knuckles wasn't quite on this pedestal at the time of its release—specifically, when the game was released as Sonic the Hedgehog 3 and Sonic & Knuckles. Compared to the runaway critical and commercial successes of the first two games, both titles only managed modest sales^note though a major reason for this was due to the first two games being bundled with the Sega Genesis shortly after their release, a benefit Sonic & Knuckles only received much later; and each title was also accused of being too similar to past games and not innovative enough by reviewers, especially when compared to the preceding Sonic 2 (though both titles still received mostly positive reviews). Not helping matters was Sonic 3 being very bug-ridden due to the game's rushed production and having the notorious "Barrel of Doom" puzzle, while Sonic & Knuckles following its release would be promptly overshadowed by the release of the highly-anticipated dueling game Donkey Kong Country for the SNES. It would take years before reviewers and fans began to re-assess the two games as the singular Sonic 3 & Knuckles through Sonic & Knuckles's "digital lock-on technology" and then discovered how much of a incredible refinement of the Sonic formula the game was—better gameplay and graphics, varied playable characters, larger and more balanced level design, and a more compelling story and presentation, among other enhancements. Nowadays, the game is rarely referred to its initial two parts, complaints about the games' lack of freshness are hardly even remembered, and the game is usually considered an Even Better Sequel to Sonic 2 (although the general public tends to recognize the first two titles far more). "Both titles only managed modest sales" was quickly disproven with a simple Google search leading to the game's Wikipedia page, where it says that Sonic 3 & Knuckles were two of the best-selling games for the Genesis. Critic reviews were also overwhelmingly positive, and it seems that the critics crying "It's the Same, So It Sucks" were the minority. I say cut.
• When Sonic 3 & Knuckles was released on PC with the Sonic & Knuckles Collection, a handful of themes from Sonic 3 were changed — most notably, the themes of Carnival Night, Ice Cap, and Launch Base. Official reasoning at the time was because the Genesis versions of the songs were very sample heavy, making it hard to adapt them to the MIDI format used in the PC version. Another likely reason is due to the involvement of Michael Jackson in the making of the soundtrack of Sonic 3, and Sega either lacking the rights to include the music in the PC collection, or lacking the rights to modify them to work in MIDI format. In any case, the new themes used to replace the ones removed were not very well received by fans at the time. Several years later, the discovery of a beta version of Sonic 3 from before the game was split into two parts revealed that the arrangements used in the PC collection were Older Than They Think: the PC collection songs had originally been composed for the Genesis version of Sonic 3 before Jackson's involvement. Following this revelation, reception of the PC collection's music improved a bit: while most fans argue that the Jackson-made Genesis themes are better (and their replacement with the prototype tracks in the Compilation Re-release Sonic Origins was met with some displeasure), it is now generally agreed that the PC collection themes are better than they were given credit for at the time. We should remove the Sonic Origins bashing
• Sonic Lost World is one of the fastest (no pun intended) examples in the Sonic franchise. While Lost World still isn't the most beloved Sonic game around, reception towards the game significantly improved in just a year, thanks to a surprise patch that actually fixed things, a first for the series, and very well-received DLC based on Yoshi's Island and the Zelda series. People became a lot more receptive towards the game's design ideas and see some real potential in it for a sequel. The Broken Base remains, but in light of its ill-fated successors, things suddenly don't seem so bad in Lost World. The subsequent release (and reaction to) 2017's Sonic Forces vindicated Lost World even further. Another case of "It's not so bad compared to subsequent, suckier installments", also it says there's still a Broken Base surrounding it.
• Sonic Unleashed was subjected to mixed to negative reception back in 2008, with the "Non-Sonic" portions of the game being a strong point of contention, the Werehog in particular catching a ton of heat. The game was considered a 2000s "Dark Age" Sonic title, and was even among the de-listed Sonic games by Sega. A decade later, it isn't uncommon to find a lot more defenders towards Unleashed in particular citing the game's creativity, production values that many took for granted at the time, awesome graphics done by the Hedgehog Engine (that still look great even today, perhaps even better than some 2010s titles), the extremely varied but excellent soundtrack, and a plot that is generally considered very solid. The warming reception is likely what caused Sega to relist and reprint the game after it was delisted in 2010. Keep
• Sonic Riders: The games were divisive at the time as they came out during the 2nd Dork Age of the series. The 3rd game Sonic Free Riders ended up killing the sub-series with its mandatory Kinect controls. However as time went on and especially after the release of Team Sonic Racing, the first two games has been getting a lot more love lately and has been getting praise for its unique concept of a racing game that didn't copy Mario Kart like Team Sonic Racing did. There was also praise for the first two games having Guest Characters from other Sega franchises as unlockables where Team Sonic Racing has been criticized for cutting out the guest characters from the Sega Superstars games. A lot of fans now consider Sonic Riders and its sequel Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity among the best Sonic games during the 2nd Dork Age period, with several fans now wanting a HD port of the first two games with online or a 4th entry that combines all of the positive aspects of all three games. We should cut the Team Sonic Racing bashing, people liked that game.

Super Mario Bros. Super Mario Bros., while a popular franchise, has a few examples which it'll take a longer time to be popular;

• In 2012, Shigeru Miyamoto shocked many by dubbing Super Mario Bros. 2 as his favorite Mario game, tied with the first Super Mario Bros. This surprise was because, while the game itself was popular during the first few years following its original release on the NES, bad word of mouth regarding its origins as a Dolled-Up Installment (especially during the Turn of the Millennium) battered its reputation considerably. General audience reaction has been kinder towards the game in the following years, partly because it is a game that breaks the formula in many ways and introduced numerous defining gameplay mechanics. In particular, modern-era games like Super Mario 3D World and Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze were inspired by it, which has been noticed positively. More of Popularity Polynomial.
• Super Mario World was always a high-selling and well-received game, but within its generation, the game wasn't yet considered an instant classic. On its release, it was criticized for being very little of an improvement from the previous Super Mario Bros. 3. It was also overlooked by many due to the then-recent debut of Sega's Sonic the Hedgehog on the Sega Genesis, which in its marketing heavily capitalized on the game's faster speed and more colorful graphics in comparison to Super Mario World, which made the game look much more pedestrian in its presentation to the general public. As the years went by, people began to see that its depth was then-unheard of for a platformer, as the game had many alternate routes, secret levels, and a bit of puzzle solving. The controls were also recognized as being much smoother than its NES predecessors, and the game was also recognized for introducing the popular Yoshi to the world. The game also became the focal point for an entire community of ROMhackers making custom levels and content for the game. Nowadays, Super Mario World is considered not only one of the greatest Mario games and one of the best platformers ever, but one of the greatest games of all time. We already discussed this and agreed that it was never hated enough to qualify for this trope.
• Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island was critically acclaimed upon release but largely overshadowed by the more hyped-up Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest. It's now considered to be one of the greatest games of the 16-bit era. Let's cut this too for the same reason as Super Mario World
• The Super Mario Land games were acclaimed and sold well in their day, but fell into Canon Discontinuity due to their non-contemporary settings and being overall weird games that also lacked the involvement of series mastermind Shigeru Miyamoto. In 2015, when Nintendo celebrated the 30th anniversary of Super Mario Bros., both Land games were included among the more iconic traditional games in the timeline. Fans have also become more appreciative of both games' creativity, atypical plotlines and settings (no Mushroom Kingdom, no Bowser, no Luigi or even Princess Peach; The first Land introduced Daisy, while Land 2 doesn't even have a Save the Princess plot, and was also the game to introduce Wario), while still staying true (for the most part) to the traditional fun gameplay of the franchise. The Broken Base surrounding the modern New Super Mario Bros. titles contributes to this as well. I don't remember the Mario Land titles ever being particularly hated. Let's cut it.
• Yoshi's Story on the Nintendo 64, which was the sequel to Yoshi's Island, got a ton of criticism when released. Lots of people made fun of it or bashed it for being a 2D game when 3D was the big fad, derided it for being too easy and too kiddie, and of course, it wasn't Yoshi's Island, which people were already holding up as one of the best games of the entire Mario series. Nowadays, Yoshi's Story is more fondly remembered for its graphics, music, Self-Imposed Challenge potential, and the gamers who were actually in its target demographic when it came out, with many of them having happy memories of it. Keep
• When it originally released, many gamers disliked Super Mario Sunshine due to the voice-acted cutscenes and gameplay that was based more on the use of a water jetpack instead of traditional jumping. Years later, Mario fans have come to embrace the title. It's still not the most popular Mario title around, but its reception is much better, with some even going so far as to consider it a better game than Super Mario 64. While the game was criticized when it first came out for "not looking like a Mario game" due to lacking certain aspects of the series' iconography (such as the Goombas and Koopas), Sunshine's unique aesthetics are now a point of praise for the game after later Mario games were criticized for recycling the same look and feel over and over again. Keep
• The original Paper Mario, while critically acclaimed, had the bad luck of being near the end of a console generation, with people anticipating the Nintendo Game Cube, and for not being Super Mario RPG, of which fans were waiting for a sequel since the previous generation. Its popularity didn't take off until well into the GameCube era when used copies started popping up and people decided to try it with the lower price. It became a big enough success (audience-wise, though not sales until the Wii's Virtual Console) to be the first Mario RPG to get a sequel. Paper Mario also launched Nate Bihldorff from a freelance writer who barely got hired for anything to Nintendo's current primary localization writer, now well known enough that he was a host at Nintendo's booth at E3 2012. The Super Mario RPG fans have also since learned to accept it and put Paper Mario on equal standing with it. Not sure about this one. I can imagine some initial backlash over the game not being Mario RPG 2 when it came out though. What do you guys think?
• Super Paper Mario caused a Broken Base due to using real-time battles (aside from one RPG battle during Chapter 7, and even then, the presentation of said battle is a departure from the prior games) and being quite a bit easier than the previous two games. The hate has mostly died down since, in part due to the following game in the series quickly becoming almost unanimously derided by fans instead. SPM is now viewed as being a very different but still enjoyable Mario RPG experience and has especially become appreciated for its darker story filled with meta jokes, commentary, and even gameplay mechanics. The Broken Base is definitely still there, though; few will argue against the game's solid story, but many fans still dislike the game for having several examples of That One Level and the gameplay, though unique, for being tedious and often very easy to break. Keep
• Luigi's Mansion, when first released, was criticized by fans for not being a platformer, and for being very, very short, and was overall seen as a weak title for that reason alone. While even fans of the game still criticize its short length, which is not without reason or merit, it is more universally praised nowadays for being a great game that took the Super Mario franchise in an unexpected direction compared even to other spin-offs at the time. The game eventually received a sequel on the Nintendo 3DS in 2013, a 3DS remake in 2018, and another sequel for the Nintendo Switch in 2019. I do remember this game being divisive early on. Keep
• The GameCube Mario Parties (4-7) caught a ton of fire in their day for being very repetitive sequels with a notorious amount of lazily reused assets that did little to spice or change up the formula. They have become to be more loved, however, when the series returned after a hiatus with 9, which drastically changed the formula from its frantic free-for-all style, which many fans actually did not like. Which each new Mario Party released that drifts away from the classic formula, the more and more the GameCube parties became vindicated, with some considering them now to be right up there with the Nintendo 64 titles. The release of Super Mario Party vindicated the games further, being heralded as a slight return to form for the series by going back to the classic formula (mostly), with Superstars proving to be an Even Better Sequel to Super by re-imagining a few classic boards from the N64 games. I remember hearing all the time how the GameCube Mario Party games were inferior to the N64 titles. Will keep.
• Mario Party DS was mostly ignored at launch, with the general consensus being that it was a game that is So Okay, It's Average. But as a result of various videos showcasing fake anti-piracy measures for the game going viral in late 2020, many people decided to go back to the game and give it a try, with it receiving praise for its unique minigames and boards as well as having an exceptionally interesting story mode for a Mario Party game. Another strong point of the game is that it actually feels like a true Mario Party experience in comparison to the other portable installments in the series. Probably more of a Colbert Bump
• Super Mario 3D World arrived at a time when fans were clamoring for a new sandbox 3D adventure akin to 64, Sunshine, and (to a lesser extent) Galaxy; they felt that the newer game felt too similar to the presentation of the 2D New Super Mario Bros. games, and thus the game's reveal garnered it some backlash as not being a "true" 3D Mario in the vein of the previous titles (while Super Mario 3D Land showed similar characteristics, it being released on a handheld system and its novel 3D effects lessened the criticism). While it managed to Win Back the Crowd with later previews, being released on the failing Wii U console limited its reach. This was demonstrated on its opening week in the UK, where it was handily outsold by Knack, a dueling 3D platformer that doubled as a launch title for the PS 4 that had less-than-stellar reviews; resulting in much mockery online. When it was re-released on the Switch after Super Mario Odyssey, which finally filled the void of sandbox gameplay and original worlds, fans were much more receptive towards what it did provide—a surprisingly inventive campaign that offered and played with plenty of new and old ideas in its level design, game mechanics, and characters; bolstered by the addition of four player cooperative play (a rarity for the 3D platformer genre). I remember 3D World always being critically acclaimed, it just had the bad luck of being released on a failing platform. I don't think it counts.

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More will come later. Let me know your thoughts.

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 27th 2022 at 7:35:21 AM

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