Seasonal Rot / Sequelitis / Audience Alienating Era Cleanup

Superman (Brian Michael Bendis) has been removed from the The DCU's section in Audience-Alienating Era, but since we're still taking about Superman, let's factor Superman: Grounded into the equation, shall we?

The entry reads: "the storyline after the fan-favourite and critically acclaimed New Krypton saga, was poorly received to the point of many outlets naming it one of the worst books of 2010. While the premise of Superman Walking the Earth in an effort to rediscover himself was considered a decent one, the book itself became infamous not only for a nonsensical imputes ^* A woman complaining to Superman about how he could've saved her husbands life if he helped use his heat vision to remove his brain tumour, despite this happening in the wake of thousands dying in War Of The Supermen, but for the majority of the narrative just being Superman blindly wandering around lecturing people instead of actually being Superman, not helped by a lot of his messages coming off as questionable at best. Tellingly, after writer J. Michael Straczynski left the book to handle Superman: Earth One, replacement writer Chris Robertson gave the arc a full-scale overhaul that routinely mocked the entire premise up until then as nonsensical."

First of; no, Superman doesn't spend the majority of the story arc just aimlessly walking around. He saves people repeatedly, like a child and his mother from an abusive father in Superman #705, and improves quality of life for an entire town when he helps revitalize an old factory in Superman #702.

Secondly, when Chris Roberson took over writing duties, the story arc never mocked its original premise. It still treated it with seriousness and respect. Superman's friends were nothing but respectful during the whole situation, which was less "You lost faith in America and your connection with humanity? That's the stupidest thing you've ever heard." and more "We all have our doubts and fears but what matters is that we push past them and be and do better. You'll get through this. You always do."

Third, the story arc was praised for a particular moment in Superman #701 in which Superman talks down a suicidal woman similar to All-Star Superman, but with more nuance. I don't even know if the people who hate Grounded are a Vocal Minority or a very sizeable crowd.

Really, the whole entry is just trying to find ways to criticize Grounded while ignoring the positive aspects. I've read the story arc and I have a positive opinion of it.

So, what do you think?

By the way, I asked this question in Is this an example? to get a proper consensus.

Edited by MasterHero on May 14th 2022 at 7:47:52 AM

Does this rewrite of the first Naruto example under Seasonal Rot look good? Everyone okay if I edit the entry and cite this thread?

Alright, I rewrote it.

Edited by greatpikminfan on May 22nd 2022 at 12:22:34 PM

I write stories about naked people beating demons, gods, and eldritch horrors.

Well, I think it looks good. Most examples on Seasonal Rot only list the negative aspects of a season without really talking about the positives.

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Also, I'd really like some clarification on my Superman: Grounded argument. War Jay 77 over at Is this an example? says that the entry was written just to echo Linkara's feelings on Grounded. Personally, I went over reviews from Superman Homepage and ComicVine and I found reception to the story on an monthly basis to be divisive. Some liked the story, others hated it and a third group found itself in the middle, with no strong feelings either way. The only real consensus I found is that the ending was decent.

So, what do you think?

Edited by MasterHero on May 15th 2022 at 10:12:32 AM

I've recently removed two entries from the Marvel Comics section of Audience-Alienating Era entered for Cates' Hulk run and Spider-Man Beyond/Zeb Wells' Amazing Spider-Man due to a combination of not meeting the five year limit rule (the runs only started this year, Zeb Wells' run specifically has only had one issue released so far) and frankly coming off as more an example of Complaining About Shows You Don't Like.

Having done that I've now noticed there are a few other entries in both the Marvel and DC pages that do not meet the five year requirement:

From Marvel:

- Dan Slott's Iron Man (Began in 2018)

- Matthew Rosenberg's Uncanny X-Men (Began in 2018)

From DC:

- Nightwing Rebirth's Ric Grayson era (began with Nightwing #50, released in October 2018)

- Infinity Frontier Green Lantern (Began in 2021)

- Infinity Frontier Justice League (Began in 2021)

- Teen Titans Academy (Began 2021)

Is it all good if I remove these since they break the five year wait rule?

Edited by Mightymoose101 on May 22nd 2022 at 6:22:37 AM

Go ahead and remove them

You'd be surprised by how many of the entries in the DC and Marvel sections are basically Complaining About Shows You Don't Like, littered with very specific reasons as to why random person didn't like random story.

I'm pretty sure Ric Grayson isn't like that TBH. Even other DC creatives were mocking it.

Removed the examples and linked back to this page as the edit reason.

There are definitely some examples from that list that I think earned their place and will be fine to see them added again later, but entries like IF GL and JL feel like exaggerations. It's definitely something to warrant a discussion down the line.

Could we at least decide then on a cut-off date? It feels absurd IMO to hold off on Ric Grayson, when the resolution of the angle is itself over a year old, and it's so reviled that mocking it is a meme in DC itself.

Well it can be added back on October 3rd 2023 if we follow the new rules set for the trope.

I just noticed this on Seasonal Rot:

This seems like it has multiple problems: shoehorning, ROCEJ/editing with an agenda (much of the entry is regurgitating bad-faith talking points from nearly a decade ago), and a needless reference to a reviewer. What do you think?

online since 1993 | huge retrocomputing and TV nerd | lee4hmz.info (under construction) | heapershangout.com

As someone who (unfortunately) remembers Gamergate…I think the hate against Anita was massively overblown. Her videos weren’t bad faith, but instead rightfully complaining about the misogyny and the lack of good female representation within the gaming community. But considering which specific website got especially involved, it turned into a circlejerk of hatred which solved nothing.

Edit: Okay, now that I’ve read the post more closely (posting on mobile sucks) I do see where the criticisms against Anita were justified. My point still stands above.

Edited by ATricksterArtist on May 25th 2022 at 8:35:08 AM

(Don't) take me home.

To be clear, I didn't mean she was arguing in bad faith, I meant to say her detractors (one of whom seems to have written the entry) were.

online since 1993 | huge retrocomputing and TV nerd | lee4hmz.info (under construction) | heapershangout.com

Sorry about that. The Gamergate scandal was a huge part of Anita’s controversy, and with her name being brought up I thought I had to take it into consideration.

(Don't) take me home.

I wast told by ATT to take this here.

Audience-Alienating Ending

• Gurren Lagann: The second half of the series was already rather divisive in it's tone in trying to be more serious as well as having an not as interesting villain compared to the Beastmen. But the ending really didn't sit well with the fandom which ended with with Nia dying due to being connected to the Anti-spirals after they were destroyed and only hanging on long enough to marry Simone. Simone hands over the keys of the Gurren to his friends and wanders off to live life as a lonely hermit. Yeah it's meant as a Bittersweet Ending, but many felt it soured the whole series after everything the heroes went through and makes it hard to watch again with that knowledge.

The ATT consensus is to cut as AAE is not just disliked ending but such it becomes practically the only thing the work is remembered/known outside the fandom for which isn't the case as the series remains well received and popular. So permission to cut?

Or is this not the right thread desert both involving Audience Alienation?

I reiterate my support to cut it.

135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300

I know that this thread was linked to in the ATT query, but it's the wrong thread.

This is for Audience-Alienating Era, not Ending

Sorry, my wires were crossed there. I don't know if there is a cleanup thread for Audience-Alienating Ending. Maybe make one in Short term projects?

Macron's notes

CD 20 Superness just restored the Cartoon Network example with the edit reason:

Since the thread agreed to cut, permission to recut?

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Yes, and we need to add a commented note explaining that the example doesn't count, and why

How's this for a commented-out note?

Any suggested improvements?

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

That looks good.

Thanks. I've removed the example and added the note.

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Examples from The Flash and Green Lantern coming up!

• "Joshua Williamson's run was initially well-received since it was part of the Rebirth relaunch and seemed to be taking cues on what not to do from previous runs, with Barry being likeable and the White Man's Burden characterisation of Wallace (the New 52 version of Wally turned Decomposite Character) being reined in, while also teasing the return of much missed Flash characters and elements, such as Jay Garrick, Bart Allen and Iris and Barry's marriage. However, it was always uneven in its balancing of the mythos-heavy Speed Force storylines and the comparatively more relaxed Rogues storylines, which made it an inconsistent title at best. However, after a long time, opinions on Williamson's run soured. His handling of the characters became harder to read, as characters began carrying the Conflict Ball and arguing more and going down strange paths at odds with their established characters — not helping was how the run seemed to like to lean on the fourth wall and deride Barry Allen... without ever actually retorting any of the arguments it made against him, making him come off as a Failure Hero at best, a toxic influence on those around him at worst. The Forces storyline eventually grew unwieldy and consumed the book, with very few people interested in the new Forces at play, the new characters introduced with those Forces or anything involving the Speed Force, with Williamson's additions to the Flash mythos from these stories, namely Godspeed and Paradox, being disliked and viewed as derivative and generic, with Godspeed in particular given a huge amount of focus despite fan approval boiling down to liking his cool design and name. The handling of fan favourite villains Captain Cold and Hunter Zolomon proved very unpopular, as he made them less unique and more generically evil. One of the run's sole bright spots, the relatively good treatment of Wally West, was made Harsher in Hindsight due to being setup for his misuse in other series. Finally, the much teased returning elements of the mythos weren't even handled in the title proper, with Jay returning in the almost completely unrelated Doomsday Clock, while Bart ran off the second after appearing in The Flash to be in Young Justice. The result seemed to be a title that promised to restore missing pieces of Flash lore but was shackled by editorial and couldn't, and struggled to keep readers entertained in the meantime. Eventually, it was revealed Eobard Thawne was the in-universe reason for Bart's actions above, some of Wally's actions in Heroes in Crisis^note More specifically, the cover-up; the actual cause of the deaths themselves were retconned in the first arc of The Flash (Infinite Frontier) to be the work of Savitar, not Wally at all, Wallace approving of the brutal methods of Damian Wayne, and even Wally and Barry fighting each other (something that Zoom was shown to have manipulated them into doing). In short, it was an Author's Saving Throw that tried to make up for the OOC from the Rebirth era, which fans gladly accepted despite it universally being viewed as extremely clumsy and awkward, purely because it at least salvages the characters." - This example is long and overly detailed and simply comes off as a singular user's attempts to voice his/her personal grievances with the run. I myself have watched reviews of Joshua Williamson's run in YouTube and they have been mostly positive. Also, this entry tries to paint Barry Allen as a Designated Hero, which was already debunked.
• "Robert Venditti's run. While it was on the steep hill of continuing after Geoff Johns' legendary run, it rapidly became despised with its primary storyline that turned the Emotional Spectrum into a limited reservoir in a failed attempt to turn the franchise into a metaphor for environmentalism. Then, after that and several other stories failed to gain interest, Venditti jettisoned all the Lantern Corps (which had become one of the cores of the mythos) and had Hal as the sole Green Lantern, wielding an ancient artifact made by the Guardians. Come Rebirth, virtually all the major changes Venditti made were undone. However, his run continued and was still generally ill-regarded, and seemed to only be notable for all the disliked changes it made to the mythos, such as turning Soranik Natu into a mini-Sinestro or randomly deciding to burn a scar into Kyle Rayner. By the time Grant Morrison's The Green Lantern series began, it was generally welcomed by most fans." I do admit the first stage of Robert's run was bad, but it's generally agreed to have improved in Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps and the examples with Soranik Natu ultimately come off as cherry-picking flaws in a largely positive era.

So, what do you say?

First example I would say is an iffy case since common agreement is that it vastly improved by its second half. That being said, this first half did encompass 50 issues and over two years of storytelling, so not sure if it can count or not.

Venditti I will say was an audience-alienating era at first, given that his New 52-era GL did kill a lot of the momentum that was built up by Johns' run. I'd argue that making a case that specifically his New 52 era was considered an AAE, which dissipated with the Rebirth relaunch and his Hal n' Pals run was better received.