Hate Sink cleanup

My bad, I meant interpretation.

Seconding a cut for Randall. I could buy him earning some moderate disdain from the audience when he tries to kidnap Boo, but his character as a whole is definitely meant to be entertaining.

Edited by Coachpill on May 6th 2024 at 7:06:00 AM

to cutting Randall and Bakugo.

I also think Dahlia counts partly because I don't think she's meant to come off as charismatic to the audience. I don't think she's necessarily meant to come off as cool partly because she gets a "Reason You Suck" Speech about how none of her plans fully worked out which is depicted as right.

The key part is that she's supposed to be entertaining and memorable and you don't make a character be a major focus for 3 out of 5 cases without intending them to be entertaining and memorable. She has a major presence any time she's onscreen. Her name being mentioned is part of several Wham lines in case 5. She's so cunning she even is able to fool Phoenix, even the playable Phoenix in case 5 until he's able to figure her out in court. The simple fact that she's a dead witness who uses her own death to pull off a scheme is interesting and impressive. She gets a reason you suck speech as a cathartic defeat but so does Voldemort and Light Yagami. She gets an impressive exorcism breakdown. Other characters like Frollo and Randall get humiliating defeats too. I really don't think it should be an argument that she's meant to be incredibly enjoyable anytime she's onscreen.

Edited by Shad0wSmoke on May 6th 2024 at 4:26:45 AM

all for cutting Randall, Dahlia, and Manfred

also https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HateSink/FateSeries

as much as Zouken sucks I somewhow doubt they would have given him a death scene where he remebered who he used to be an accept his death if he was truly meant to be hated.

I'm for cutting Randall Boggs, Manfred von Karma, Dahlia Hawthorne & Zouken

• The Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Rescue Team games has Gengar, the leader of Team Meanies. His despicable acts towards you gradually escalate from stealing your mission letters to blaming you for being the human who got cursed by Ninetales and forcing your team to go on the run to find the truth. However, he does have a change of heart when the true reasons for the plot are revealed.

I'll let the last part speak for itself as to why he doesn't count since a character whose purpose is to be hated by audiences wouldn't get such development.

Yeah no. That is an automatic cut for Gengar for that entry.

As for Zouken, I agree with the cut for him even for the last moment the more I realized. As said if they really want him hated they would not give him a death scene like that.

I'm for cutting Endeavor (MHA), Manfred Von Karma, Dahlia, Randall Boggs, and especially Gengar (he's a jerk but is treated sympathetically by the narrative and is redeemed).

I also think Medusa Gorgon (Soul Eater) should be removed as well. While she's heinous even for a Complete Monster, she's also portrayed as charismatic, competent, and even attractive. She has several traditional cool traits such as a versatile skillset, multiple close fight scenes, successful manipulations, and some focus. The entry also doesn't go into detail about her loathsome traits and her general reception is Love to Hate.

I have yet to seen Soul Eaters but from what I can tell and I’m the information I am getting Medusa doesn’t seem like the villain who was meant to be hated and have vibes that make her away from the trope.

This is one of those entries where the character is only pinned toward the actions instead of actual character than anything

If Endeavor (MHA) has an example, it's worth checking for complaining, because he's portrayed as flawed, but heroic figure, who realizes how messed up he's been in the past.

Medusa is too hammy, and portrayed as an atteactive and competent manipulator, with a lot of chapters shown from her perspective.

I mean, it was likely written back when he was just an abusive father and husband (frankly I'm still mildly annoyed they decided to make him sympathetic, but, it is what it is)

Edited by WarJay77 on May 6th 2024 at 1:00:37 PM

If the example is that old, then I guess it makes sense.

Agreed on chopping Medusa... way too fun of a villain and the story emphasizes her contingency plans as well as her devotion to cruelty and sadism going over the top and just becoming weirdly enjoyable.

From Video Games (A to M):

• Fallout: New Vegas:
  • Colonel Cassandra Moore is Exibit A of the faults of the NCR (or would be if not for General Lee Oliver). Abrasive and bloodthristy, Moore is the one The Courier reports to for a majority of the NCR's ending route. Every time she gives you a task, she pushes for the most violent option, wanting you to wipe out The Kings, The Great Khans, and The Brotherhood of Steel. She takes special ubrage with the peaceful route with The Kings, as she'll get Ambassador Crocker fired for it. She is likly a major factor in many players abandoning the NCR route in favor of Mr. House or Yes Man.
  • Dermot and Saint James of Westside are a pair of slavers who make their living kidnapping people (even children) and selling them to the drugged out Fiends. "Saint" James is the worse of the two, as he is also a Serial Rapist and a pedophile.
  • The Fiends are the largest and most unstable raider "tribe" in the Mojave wasteland. Being so strung out on chems, the Fiends kill on sight and Rape, Pillage, and Burn to their hearts (or lack there of) content.
  • The worst of the worst of the Fiends is their chef Cook-Cook. Cook-Cook takes the rape and burn part of the Fiends to the extreme, being that he rapes his captives senseless before burning them alive with a flamethrower. His raping is particularly infamous due to inflicting it on anything (even animals) he can get his hands on. The human flesh found at his camp implies he's also a cannibal.
  • Father Elijah was Veronica's mentor and the leader of the Mojave chapter of The Brotherhood of Steel until their defeat at HELIOS One, afterwards he abandoned the Brotherhood to take the treasures of Sierra Madre casino. By the time you meet him, if there was ever any good in Elijah, it has long been stamped out, as he has gone mad and become genocidal, planning to use the Sierra Madre's toxic cloud and holograms to wipe out almost all life in the Mojave, then enslave the survivors through the use of bomb collers. To that end, he puts one of the bomb collers on The Courier and forces you to find a way to open the death trap riddled casino, taunting you all the while.
  • The White Legs from the Honest Hearts DLC are a primative tribe with hopes of joining Caesar's Legion. However, they care nothing for the order the Legion's order and arn't misinformed like the Great Khans. Instead they only wish to join the Legion to contiune their endless pilaging. To prove their worthyness to the Legion, they attacked the peaceful Latter Day Saints community of New Canaan, killing many of the families living there. After the New Canaan's escape and contiune their missionary work, the White Legs proceed to attack and kill the tribes that they preach to.
  • The White Legs leader Salt-Upon-Wounds is notably lothsome as, in addtion to the above, he is stated to have ordered his men to literally Salt the Earth.

I am going to say for sure that a couple of these characters don't qualify. The only characters that do certifiably qualify are Moore(Her "canon" incarnation to be exact, her OWB incarnation is another story, but that's a fan work and not fully relevant here), as well as Dermot and Saint James.

The "I am on the Fence on this one":

The Fiends are REALLY horrible and they have unique traits of cannibalism, drug addiction, and rape associated with them, but the thing is that they honestly mostly function as literal "kill x and y" enemy NPCs for an NCR quest so I am a bit unsure on these ones, there's nothing separating their leadership from say Hogger or some named Kobald from World of Warcraft. I am on the fence on this one because on one end they have the deeds to appear very repulsive to the player and enough of it is inferred ingame, but on the other end, the players' interactions with them is "go kill x ASAP" without much focus on them.

Now the clear disqualifiers:

Elijah is completely evil but is framed in a wayyy too narrative compelling way to qualify, same issues as to why Frollo can't qualify.

The White Legs and Salt-Upon-Wounds are more meant to be the arc villains you are meant to root against, and while their leader got upvoted for CM, Salty only got upvoted for this because he had far more of a reach and a bigger bodycount than the average raider tribe. Apart from this I don't see what makes them more, whereas a case could be made for the Fiends being repulsive enough to qualify for HS, especially since they are dealt with in 1-2 quests.

Edited by xie323 on May 7th 2024 at 6:10:27 AM

Definitely keep Moore, Dermot, and St James, but I'd say keep Cook-Cook as well. Get rid of the rest.

From Jax's entry in Characters/TheAmazingDigitalCircusPlayers:

• Hate Sink: Jax is a mischievous sociopath who cares only about himself, craves violence and death, puts everyone else's lives in danger for the sake of his own amusement, and even refuses to attend Kaufmo's funeral. The developers even confirmed that Jax being hateable was intentional.

I had previously removed an example from this article because I believe Jax falls under Laughably Evil, but it seems to have been re-added. Should it be kept, or be removed again?

I don't think he counts. He's too funny.

I actually forgot to bring it up as soon as I saw it in his entry. Anyways, in my eyes I really believe it is too soon to add him to the trope. I mean sure he is a huge jerk but I do not believe this is what the writers wanted despite his character as said being rude. Not to mention he has many moments of genuinely being funny even if you remove the above part that I said.

Edited by Echidna on May 9th 2024 at 11:03:52 AM

The example also said the creators intended for him to be hated. Is there any confirmation of this, and if so, would it make any difference in determining whether or not he qualifies as a Hate Sink?

Edited by PhoenixFalcon on May 9th 2024 at 8:05:49 AM

I tried checking out the TADC fan wiki (and the original sources it cites) for info on this, and instead, I actually found evidence that the opposite is true; that is, evidence that the creators didn't intend for Jax to be a Hate Sink. Here is what I found:

"I'm one of them" [in response to, "how do you feel about the jax simps"]
(Gooseworx, Tumblr, 10.Apr.2023)

"[Jax] couldn't not be my favorite, because I specifically designed him to be everything I like in characters. I like terrible characters."
(Gooseworx, "GLITCHX 2023" [YouTube], 9.Nov.2023, timestamp 2:37:12)

So it sounds like Jax is one of those "Love to Hate as the Intended Audience Reaction" characters, and thus not a Hate Sink.

Edited by m-95 on May 9th 2024 at 4:36:46 AM

He's rather comedic still, so I've got an overall impression that he was an intentional Crosses the Line Twice type, instead of someone people would dislike.

Hades - Other Characters has this entry for Theseus:

Now here's the thing. Theseus is exactly as much of an annoying loser to the other characters as the entry says. But it's all Played for Laughs. He's a hilariously melodramatic Large Ham who's presented with the style and flare of a professional wrestler. Plus, his friendship with Asterius stems from him freeing Asterius from the underworld and allowing him into Elysium, which the game states to have been an entirely genuine act of altruism.

Yeah he's meant to be hilarious with how much self-awareness he lacks. The golden mask and chariot with Extreme Measures really leans into this. He's also That One Boss, so its not like he sucks at fighting.

I don't see him as a hate sink. Cut the entry. Sure he can be a jerk and arrogant at some point and at battles but the dude still has moments of actually having good skills in combat and can be funny at some point at the game.

RE: Ace Attorney let me chime in on the characters I'm most familiar with.

Redd White: leaning cut. Aside from being a Cold Ham he's really not meat to be anything but despised. However, I cut Roger Retinz because while he's despised as his paparazzi persona, he's also very silly and has a over the top personality. Redd White while he is an awful person he does have some humor to him like the fact he constantly makes up words, his Engrish in the Japanese dub, and his defeat is ridiculously over the top.

Manfred: Cut. Savvy, his breakdown is funny, and is honestly a pretty complex character. Not much to say here that hasn't been said.

Richard Wellington: Come on, the fact "Richard Wellington loves large bananas!" is even an option when discussing his nearsightedness should be enough to tell you that he doesn't belong.

Matt Engarde: His surfer personality especially when you mess up during his "Matt's secret" psyche lock where he legitimately made me laugh. Giving him his OWN Sadistic Choice is catharsis but he honestly seems like too much of a buffoon to count. Cut.

Juan Corrida: He may be one of the most vile victims out there and yet... it's implied he feels remorse for causing Celeste's death by calling off the wedding. I can't in good conscience say he's the most despicable character in Case 2-4. Leaning cut.

Furio Tigre: This could be the first one where I feel he's a keeper. Awful person and his hamminess doesn't distract from the fact we hate him. You could make the argument his Paper-Thin Disguise keeps him off but I don't know.

Dahlia Hawthorne: I'm actually leaning keep on her Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse is definitely in play here and she lacks Junko Enoshima's humorous moments if we compare her to another Teens Are Monsters VN character, wit and charm and she's only pitied by her sister. She's given a very epic "The Reason You Suck" Speech by Mia and Phoenix and ultimately doesn't have Manfred and Kristoph's superficial charm or intellect.

Daryan Crescend: His breakdown is way too silly. And you COULD make the argument that while he wanted the money his smuggling of a cocoon could have saved a life.

Kristoph: Cut. He's actually charming, his breakdown is way too ridiculous, and yes, he's a legitimately talented attorney, so Cut Lex Luthor a Check is in play here.

phantom/Bobby Fulbright: His Bobby disguise is way too silly, he's considered a high point of Dual Destinies and he's Laughably Evil. So cut.

As I recall

• Redd White, Richard Wellington, Matt Engarde, Furio Tigre, Daryan Crescend are all written as Laughably Evil Villain of the Week
• Manfred Von Karma, too cool and intimidating, becomes a butt of jokes once things stop going his way
• (Juan Corrida, tbh I honestly don't remember him)
• Dahlia Hawthorne, she is extremely petty and not very good at planning. The more about her is revealed, it becomes apparent the game is building up to players to cheer for her third takedown
• Kristoph Gavin, too charismatic and kinda has a point how screwed up the setting is
• Phantom, too Laughably Evil

In short, agree with the above