Hate Sink cleanup

Evil Is Cool is irrelevant here, as it's subjective.

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"Author's intent became muddled when talking about villains like Voldemort and Darkseid. It was clear that the authors based them on the worst kinds of people, and yet people note that these villains have cool aesthetic and people actually love them for it. Even make posters and toys of them unironically. And there are villains that seem too complex of a character to simply sum up as a Hate Sink.

So now, the emphasis of Hate Sink as far as I can tell is how "uncool" the character is. And the problem with Frollo is that he's very complex as a character and he does have an Evil Is Cool Villain Song despite being a rather realistic character. You will not see this in Lady Tremaine, the quintessential example of a Disney Hate Sink. "

That seems to emphasize the evil is cool aspect to me. Or perhaps entertaining is a better word? I see that the reasons for characters like Light Yagami and Flowey not counting was due to that.

Intentional Hate Sink characters can be botched and end up liked by the audience, but most major villains (like Voldemort) are intended to be entertaining. There's two kinds of hatred at play; Love to Hate, and actually hatred ala The Scrappy. The Hate Sink is not just someone the audience should dislike or side against with; they should garner serious and genuine dislike. That's why Umbridge is a Hate Sink and Voldemort is not; Voldemort is too fun as a villain despite being an objectively horrible person.

It's not so much about being a "loser" but about having nothing redeeming that makes them enjoyable to watch/read/etc. A majority of major bad guys would not be a Hate Sink since the audience would be turned off by having a bad guy they actively hate as a character.

In other words, the trope's emphasis never changed. We just became better at defining it.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 6th 2024 at 3:55:36 PM

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So I suppose entertaining is the better word? That does still feel rather subjective (Frollo is obviously genuinely hated by many people and I personally find Voldemort boring and dislike him in his entirety) but I guess it is a bit easier to quantify.

So to sum it up more, a villain that would regularly be in top 5 or 10 characters lists wouldn't count right?

Yeah. If a character is giving entertaining traits by the narrative or is presented in a way that would make the audience like them as a character, they would not be a Hate Sink. Now I thought Frollo was a Hate Sink for a while but his song is too damn awesome for him to have been indended as a Hate Sink. Voldemort is by no means a well written villain but I think characters like Umbridge, Aunt Marge, and Fudge are more along the lines of what would be a Hate Sink in that universe since they just have nothing going for them.

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Let me break down a bit. A villain can be charismatic, cunning, successful, meticulous, ruthless, powerful. These are objective traits because the author has written them this way. These are factors when Evil Is Cool writeups are considered, because audience like those qualities. Character writing is contributing to a subjective side. Now, when the writer intentionally doesn't make a villain with these qualities, and even goes out of their way to make them both an asshole and pathetic, that's Hate Sink, which is an objective quality because its a character's direct attribute by work's content. Characters can have many traits, which all contribute to Evil Is Cool and Hate Sink in parallel. However, one is how they're written, the other is readers' opinion. They are on opposite sides of the line, which is why trying to connect Evil Is Cool with Hate Sink directly is improper. In summary, if the author gives a villain some "cool" quality, scene or aesthetic, they'd very unlikely be Hate Sink, but they would in turn likely be an Evil Is Cool. What the audience has thought is a factor for Evil Is Cool, but has nothing to do with Hate Sink.

Edited by Amonimus on May 6th 2024 at 11:15:31 AM

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Right. This trope is not about how audiences actually react; it's an objective trope about how they're written by the creator. The result is irrelevant; a Hate Sink doesn't actually have to be disliked by the audience, that just needs to be the creator's intention. And to make a character unlikable, the creator will almost never give them any likable scenes or qualities.

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Gonna be posting this as a double-check as I've gotten on a Red Dead binge. After some thought, I decided to add a HS entry to Leopold Strauss's sheet.

• Hate Sink: Downplayed; Strauss does help the gang from a financial perspective and is generally cordial with his fellow members, but the people he targets include desperate people who couldn't pay back and are thus left nearly homeless, working humiliating jobs, or overwork themselves to death. The worst part is that Strauss couldn't care less about their predicament and as the final debt collection missions are played through, Strauss's immorality is accentuated and the narrative makes a point about how despicable his actions and his attitude are, best shown when Arthur just grows frustrated and angry at his actions and throws him out of the gang. The only things keeping him from being completely despicable are his heartbroken reaction to being exiled and for remaining genuinely loyal to the gang even in the face of death.

As I said, this is proof-checking and I would like to check and see if he can be considered. I do personally think Strauss counts as he doesn't have much, if any, qualities that would qualify for Evil Is Cool and his business practice of loan sharking is seen as shrewd and vile by the other gang members who see Strauss as taking advantage of the poor. The final debt missions really make a point in how awful and damaging Strauss's businesses are towards his victims and the narrative doesn't shy away from that detail as well making Strauss out to be pretty unlikable. As for the downplayed bit, I would like to check whether his genuine loyalty and his Alas, Poor Villain moment play a role in that, otherwise, I'm open to changing that or removing the entry altogether if that's the common consensus.

"Money is the goddamn plan! Have some faith, y'all!"

I see. In that case, the Ace Attorney series really does need a re-examination then since quite a few major and some minor villains that are written to be extremely enjoyable have it listed. I don't have the time to look through all of them right now but right off the bat literally EVERY single main villain (except GAA 2) has Hate Sink in their entries. With the possible exception of AAI 1 and So J (and even then, that might simply be the audience not liking what the writers intended) every single one of them are intentionally written as cunning, successful, meticulous, ruthless, powerful and regularly rank high among top character lists.

"regularly rank high among top character lists."

Again, irrelevant. Everything else though, yes, we can go through Ace Attorney pages since it's mainly a comedy series.

Edited by Amonimus on May 6th 2024 at 11:36:17 AM

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My older brother plays the Ace Attorney games and I like watching him play, so I kind of have some experience with the series.

I would say Manfred and The Phantom can be removed as (aside from the murders they commit) I don't think they do anything too personal to cross them into HS territory IYAM and they have some degree of Evil Is Cool quirk.

Matt Engarde would count as a HS, I believe. While it has been a very long time going through JfA, I do remember how Engarde acted as insufferable as he could be for a client (and villain) and whatever wacky quirks he has don't undermine how slimy, condescending, and mean-spirited he acts towards Phoenix.

Dahlia and Kristoph, I'm not so sure. Both have a level of intrigue, are competent in their villainy, and are easily in Love to Hate territory, but at the same time, one can't overlook how petty, spiteful, and pathetic they are in their character personalities, especially as their motivations just come down to "Phoenix slighted me for something minor, he must suffer", and given how a HS character is likely to act in similarly petty motives, they might need a further discussion, but who knows...

Edited by CrimsonShark on May 6th 2024 at 9:41:02 AM

"Money is the goddamn plan! Have some faith, y'all!"

The only one I really know of is Karma, but he's such an intimidating presence that I don't think he's a Hate Sink; he's a godawful person, but his design and dialogue make him out to be a frightening and in-control sort of character, which are qualities that can make a villain likeable.

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Cut Randall, he's clearly created to be entertaining both as a villain, and Deadpan Snarker in the first film.

Engarde is extremely charismatic during his reveal and is definitely intentionally written as one of the most chilling in an enjoyable way moment in the series. Dahlia and Kristoph as well with the former having a relatively tragic backstory to boot. If Voldemort and Frollo are disqualified I certainly think they should too. The ones I'm more curious about are characters like Shamspeare, and Paul Atishon who actually are written as incredibly pathetic and meant to be slimy and loserish but they're also still written to be over the top and laughably evil goofy and are under Ensemble Darkhorses which are at odds with being Hate Sinks.

I don't know that I'd call Dahlia charismatic or successful. She's smug when she thinks things are going her way, but very quickly turns incredibly petty when they're not. And her plans are complicated, but they're not really as clever as she thinks they are. She's actually really bad at accomplishing any of her ultimate goals. That's not just fan theorizing either to be clear, it's explicitly stated ingame, it's the whole crux of Phoenix and Mia's big "The Reason You Suck" Speech to her during the finale.

Edited by TheGrayFox on May 6th 2024 at 2:34:08 AM

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She's charismatic in how she's able to manipulate everyone to her ends. She failed only because of Phoenix and Mia and a lot of what they say is spite on their end, particularly Mia who had to go through two cases of nearly everyone being enraptured by her. She obviously fails her ultimate goal in not being caught but she is victorious in several "battles" temporarily getting away with crimes unlike most of the villains in the series and ultimately kills Mia's mother while having a traumatic experience for Maya and imprisoning/killing Diego. Voldemort also had Harry and other characters giving a reason he sucks speech to him calling him a cowardly loser who ultimately fails in the end.

The main thing is that Dahlia plays a big part in how beloved T&T is. She's clearly written to be a strong villain. She's the main villain in 3 out of 5 cases. If she wasn't such a strong villain the game would be nowhere near as powerful as it is.

Edited by Shad0wSmoke on May 6th 2024 at 2:41:08 AM

She's considered charismatic in-universe by other characters like the judge, yes. But she's not shown that way to the player. Her manipulative Bitch in Sheep's Clothing routine is treated more like it's meant to be frustrating rather than impressive, with Mia in particular being constantly annoyed by it when you're playing as her. That seems more like a point in favor of the "deliberately written to be hateable" idea.

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Cut both Manfred and Dahlia, specially in HateSink.Ace Attorney subpage. They are too charismatic, smart, and great manipulators to be that hateable. (Also the best villains on Ace Attorney as a fan.)

I don't...really see Dahlia as smart or let alone charismatic. Kind of think she is definitely meant to prominently be a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing who comes off as extremely petty and narcissistic than "charismatic."

Edited by AustinDR on May 6th 2024 at 2:47:34 AM

I don't really see Dahlia as a HS honestly. Yes it is true she is manipulative but she still has many charisma inside her character and gives me some evil is cool vibes when it comes to her plan the more I think about it.

Hell, most of the time, or almost all lists she is considered number one of the best villains. That's saying something about her statue.

Fair enough.

Edited by Echidna on May 6th 2024 at 5:50:20 AM

Noticed this on HateSink.Anime And Manga:

• My Hero Academia:
  • Until Character Development started to kick in, Katsuki Bakugo was an abusive Jerkass with a bad temper. He looked down on and bullied Midoriya for not having a Quirk, all the while loudly proclaiming how he would be the greatest hero of all time just because he has a good Quirk. Some of the most notable instances of his bullying included telling Midoriya to kill himself and trying to all but murder Midoriya during the Battle Trial Arc. However, after he receives several ego-shattering defeats, he starts to mellow out. This trope was possibly intended to be downplayed as Horikoshi has since stated that he regrets making Bakugo so horrible early on.
  • At first, there was almost nothing redeemable about Enji "Endeavor" Todoroki. He dedicated his life to a petty One Sided Rivalry against the #1 Hero, All Might, destroyed the family life he had with his wife and children, unintentionally drove his eldest son Toya into villainy after he considered him a failure, cared more about winning than being a hero, and has been putting Shoto into a cruel physically and emotionally abusive training ever since the boy was four or five. The closest thing he has to a redeemable quality is his concern for Shoto holding back in battle, but even that was for his own personal gain. Even Kōhei Horikoshi calls him a shitty dad. Outside of that, he's shown to be an asshole on the job, being a hero in the most technical of terms. He's very cold to fellow heroes and the people he's trying to save.
    • Subverted, however, as he has a Jerkass Realization and begins changing. Furthermore, his relationship with his wife is re-examined briefly when it's revealed the reason he chose her was to balance his shortcomings. She herself comments on how he had her favorite flowers delivered to her, despite her only mentioning once. Additionally, his concern for Shoto's restraint with his power becomes more prominent when it's shown how damaging Enji's own Quirk is to himself as well as to his firstborn, who had stronger flames, but a weaker constitution. Shoto is uninhibited by this weakness because of his ice, but without using his fire, he'd succumb to similar cold-related issues like frostbite. Additionally, his concern becomes more justified given the stronger foes that are coming and Shoto's own losses forcing him to having to improve.

Cut both, just like Boscha from The Owl House, both Bakugo and Endeavor were hate sinks at the time, but they improved a lot over time, that they aren't considered hate sinks anymore by the fans.

Yeah but that's audience reaction, not authorial intent.

Edited by AustinDR on May 6th 2024 at 2:49:59 AM

I have no knowledge that both Bakugo and Endeavor are still in the category and also not removed sooner. They must go asap considering they straight up redeemed themselves.

I forgot to mention but there is no way they made Bakugo a complete hate sink. Yes a massive jerk but I don't find him hatable enough to fit the category.

Edited by Echidna on May 6th 2024 at 5:57:24 AM

I really think there's a sort of disconnect between the previous intepretation (not definition, sorry) of Hate Sink and the current one. Yes, Dahlia's charisma is frustrating not impressive to the main characters but the charisma of characters like Voldemort and Frollo are also supposed to be more disgusting than impressive to the main characters too. I definitely think Dahlia's capability to sweet talk and manipulate anyone that's not part of the main characters (and even Phoenix at first) to be as engaging as a cool villain song and I'm pretty sure it was intended that way. Her determination is also notable.

Edited by Shad0wSmoke on May 6th 2024 at 3:53:54 AM

Again, the definition never changed. It was just, and still is, badly misused.

As for Bakugo, I don't really recall him being a Hate Sink. Even from the beginning he wasn't a total dick (Early-Installment Weirdness Suicide Dare aside) and his temper was always played for laughs.

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