Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
They can team up with the Houthis to create a protection racket on the Red Sea, since Russia's allied to Iran and the Houthis are funded by Iran.
Ukraine war is probably not the last thing that will ever happen, you know. And more warm-water bases is always good, if you can afford them.
Edited by Smeagol17 on May 7th 2024 at 1:40:11 PM
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-fsb-plot-kill-zelenskiy/32936546.html
Kyiv mentioned that they exposed moles planted by the FSB within the State Guard of Ukraine (UDO). They're basically meant to protect VI Ps in Ukraine. Idea was to use drone/air strikes by the moles to kill Zelensky and use another wave to conceal evidence that Russia did it.
“Planted moles”, eh…
Edited by Smeagol17 on May 8th 2024 at 12:37:42 PM
Oh, bother.
And that's surprising because?
Disgusted, but not surprised
They like to call any traitor “planted mole”, since 2014, at least.
Oh, bother.
They've been pretty open about calling out homegrown traitors too. So I don't see a reason to just discount this.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Well, I am not exactly dismissing that out of hand, but some of those accusations were pretty funny, like with Pavlo Parshov. That was/is part of the larger meme/trend were traitors/dissenters/etc were called "konserva" (canned food), esentially calling them a Deep Cover Agent.
Edited by Smeagol17 on May 8th 2024 at 12:53:30 PM
Not surprised with that level of penetration TBH. Reminds me of how Kadyrov’s boys tried to roll in Kyiv pretending to be paramedics, but were nailed by the police.
They were also told to find Budanov too. So he’s still their boogeyman.
Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, May 7, 2024
- Ukraine claims to have foiled an assassination attempt on their President.
- Russia banned Freedom House.
- Russia advanced near Avdiivka, Donetsk City, and in western Zaporizhia Oblast.
“Ukraine's recent successful strikes against Russian assets in occupied Crimea appear to have succeeded in forcing Russia to bring their logistics routes closer to the frontline, and closer to Ukraine's long-range weapons arsenal.” - well, if they are safer closer…
Oh, bother.
That's not what that means. Them being closer to the long range arsenal means they're closer to being in range of them.
It's a dangerous route that they wouldn't be taking normally — they just don't have the option of the safer route anymore.
Edited by M84 on May 8th 2024 at 5:35:51 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
(They have, as that route was not literaly destroyed.)
Edited by Smeagol17 on May 8th 2024 at 12:40:52 PM
Oh, bother.
No they don't. It's clearly not a safer route anymore. They've basically been forced by these assaults to take a route that puts them in range of long range weaponry.
That's not a good thing for them.
Disgusted, but not surprised
They are forced by long range assaults to bring their route closer to the source of those assaults?
Oh, bother.
The point is that the route isn't really safe. If it was originally the safer option they would have used it in the first place.
It's just that the long range assaults have been effective enough that the previously safer route isn't safer anymore.
Disgusted, but not surprised
The overland route was abandoned for eight years and damaged during the invasion. So the shift can also be interpretend as a consequence of improved logistics in the south. Even the railway route is close to completion (and already in use), or so they say.
Edited by Smeagol17 on May 8th 2024 at 1:52:58 PM
Oh, bother.
So they're being forced to use previously abandoned and damaged overland routes.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Also much shorter.
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
Here’s the article in question that supplies the information.
I haven’t fully analyzed it yet but I’ll note the article does not call the overland routes through Ukraine safer and it seems the problem is that the Crimean bridge routes are too fragile to stick to them constantly taking damage and repair over and over.
Switching to routes that have been abandoned for eight years and damaged during the invasion, meaning plenty of repair and renewed maintenance, these don’t exactly sound safer but more that the process of damage and repair to them is easier to endure.
Also, were the Crimean bridge attacks the product of the sort of long-range artillery on the front-line?
Edited by fredhot16 on May 8th 2024 at 7:57:31 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
That article doesn’t say any of that, as far as I can see. It doesn’t even speculate on the reasons and consequences of the change. (The new rail route is beyond the range of Ukrainian artillery anyway).
Edited by Smeagol17 on May 8th 2024 at 6:11:10 PM
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
I didn’t say the article speculated all that. That is my own speculation and interpretation of the facts it presents and what ya’ll have said hitherto.
Since I hadn’t fully analyzed the article, I was only citing a little bit by noting it does not call the new routes “safer”.
Edited by fredhot16 on May 8th 2024 at 8:18:26 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Of course not. I called them safer ironically when commenting on the ISW report. (Well, in some ways they are safer, because they are shorter).
Edited by Smeagol17 on May 8th 2024 at 6:35:25 PM
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
“They are forced by long range assaults to bring their route closer to the source of those assaults?”
If your earlier statement about safety was meant to be sarcastic, why follow it up with this and arguing about whether it’s safer or not-or even saying “So the shift can also be interpretend as a consequence of improved logistics in the south”.
If your position was meant to be sarcastic, the follow-up posts kinda seem like an argument about whether it actually is safer or better.
Shorter? But is it better maintained? Better defended? Easier to repair from attacks? Less easy to find? Can the supply vehicles actually get from A to B faster?
Length isn’t the only concern or they would have switched to it before now. Other factors can be a counter to length.
Edited by fredhot16 on May 8th 2024 at 9:13:47 AM
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
Because the ISW implied that the switch in routes was (solely) because of the Crimea attacks and would make it even easier for Ukraine to target the routes. I noted that if this was the case, the switch wouldn't have happened anyway, attacks or no attacks (at least not to any large extent), and at least part of the switch (and why it is even possible) is clearly because of the improved logistics between Mariupol and Rostov.
(Of course length is not the only concern. But restoring/building the infrastructure takes time and effort. With Crimean attacks of course accelerating the reconstuction.)
Edited by Smeagol17 on May 8th 2024 at 9:31:19 PM
