The General Star Wars Thread

Nope, at least Legend's Anakin got high grades in all his subjects, as befell his prodigy statute.

Besides "diplomacy," as used by Jedi mean simply "someone who tries to keep peace between different groups, through dialogue, or a minimum of violence"

It has nothing to do with whether the political system is democratic or authoritarian.

"Someone who tell people what to do, and force them to obey", is also a form of diplomacy.

.............

Third page topper in a raw. (sigh)

Do I win a prize?

Edited by jawal on May 1st 2024 at 6:43:51 PM

"If nobody is happy, you win at diplomacy."

The Jedi were made into the dedicates diplomats because of their neutrality and not necessarily because they were naturally experts in the field. Stories each one was also a One-Man Army Magic Knight may have helped their success rate. The Clone Wars was designed to put them in a non-neutral position and that's what tanked public opinion.

Anakin demonstrated a naive perception of fair politics, but he also expressed a dissatisfaction with how slow and ponderous it was. To him the idea of "If things need to change anything that makes it happen is a good thing" reflects the rise of the Empire. People were told the Republic wasn't strong enough to stop or prevent the Clone Wars and that's why the Empire was welcomed with thunderous applause.

Anakin's talks with Padme came across to me as rather prosaic political cynicism, even if it is foreshadowing. He had some legitimate frustrations with the political system and spitballed an alternative off the top of his head. He doesn't realize he described a dictatorship of sorts until it's pointed out to him, at which point he sheepishly retracts.

In my opinion, that's actually the purpose of the scene. We often look at extremist movements and we assume that we would never follow a movement like that. This scene shows a character isn't yet some supervillain showing how someone might follow an authoritarian movement in a very prosaic sort of context. Yes, it could happen to you.

That then links nicely into his characterisation in The Clone Wars. I'm currently on season 2, and can already see that Anakin is characterised as a 'get the job done anyway you can' sort of person, a 'screw the rules, I'm doing what's right sort of person'. It's a usual characterisation for a hero, and mostly comes off as heroic in the show, but those are also the same characteristics that a fascist and a villain would have.

It's similar to Anakin's love for his friends and family. It is a strength of his and is ultimately what redeems him, but it's also a key reason he falls to the dark side in the first place.

You know, if you look past the cringey romance arc, I actually think Anakin is a pretty damn nuanced look at how an ordinary person can be primed to support authoritarianism by their lived experiences. He grew up as a slave, someone with no autonomy or power whatsoever, and apart from his mother has no positive examples of authority figures in his life, just gangsters, traffickers, and other coldhearted crooks. He's heard of a powerful democracy that dispatches gallant knights to right wrongs across the galaxy, and already, at the age of nine, is giving deep, critical thought to the fact that they've never come for him.

He finally gets out but can't bring his friends or mother with him, and later loses his mom under the most traumatic circumstances imaginable. As a Jedi he's apprenticed to a well-intentioned but very inexperienced mentor and is caught between peers who think he's the Second Coming and ones who think he's a snot-nosed brat, and feels like neither group ever lets him speak up for himself. And then he reunites with an old friend and she grew up hot, and she thinks he grew up hot, and they'd be positively blissful together were it not for the fact that they're literally prohibited by law from being so.

...sweet Force, is it really any wonder that he signed up with the first guy who told him "Yeah, don't worry, I've got a magic fix for ALL of that"?

At the end, Anakin's turn to the Dark Side, was not motivated by political ideology; he joined Palpatine for a single personal reason:

Padme.

Edited by jawal on May 1st 2024 at 9:53:10 AM

I think Padme was the main motivation, but I do like how that isn't the only motivation either. ROTS does a good job selling the fact that the Republic is a shadow of its old self and the Jedi have had to resort to underhanded measures, which, combined with his statements about democracy from the second film and general attitude of getting problems done the easiest and most decisive way, give more context for why he would join up with the fascists. This even combines with his desire to save Padme as he eventually becomes convinced of a fantasy of him and Padme taking over and ruling together (has that ever been done as an AU before? That would be interesting).

Anakin feels partly forced out by the Jedi (for asking him to spy, and the general fact he feels like they are going down a dark path) and is being manipulated by a man he really respects (Palpatine). I don't think he would ever have gone to the Dark Side without Padme, but I don't think it was just Padme pushing him there.

Edited by king15 on May 1st 2024 at 8:57:31 AM

Honestly, I think we put too much weight into the conversation in AOTC.

Beside the clear naivety of the dialogue, it is something a normal inexperienced young man, will think, and it was an idle talk, it doesn't make him " a fascist in the making" or whatnot.

And ignoring the simplicity of his arguments, he is not wrong that the Senate is corrupt and ineffective, and this is a serious problem (caused by the Sith)

....................

Anakin still thought of the Jedi and the Republic as forces of good, even if the latter didn't live up to his expectations of integrity.

His issues are mostly personal, and if Padme's safety was not tied to Palpatine, he would have allowed Mace Windu to strike him, or done it himself.

Edited by jawal on May 1st 2024 at 10:08:15 AM

I agree that the main purpose of that discussion is to demonstrate that Anakin is sheltered and naive. I also agree that someone saying that isn't automatically a fascist in making. I just think that it has the effect (and I believe intentional effect) of foreshadowing Anakin's fall to the Empire.

Him saying he finds politics annoying and wanting to deal with everything hands on isn't that conspicuous a belief for a heroic character to have. It also links nicely to his heroic characterisation (mainly in The Clone Wars, but also AOTC and ROS) of a man who will often say screw the rules I'm doing what's right. That is often a heroic mindset, the rules aren't always right, and it does work out for him most of the time. It just also makes sense why someone who can find politics annoying and prefers a hands-on-approach (which the events of TPM showed him can work) would be willing to entertain fascism. I agree he's not wrong in in that conversation, pointing out some of the flaws and corruption in the Republic, but that also further shows how he could fall to the dark side as he feels alienated by the Republic (something demonstrated more clearly in ROTS).

Yes it was mostly his love for Padme that made him join the Sith, and I don't think he would have without her, but the fact he already had a framework of having sympathy for some of their arguments and a growing cynicism towards the republic certainly helped him along. Furthermore, him having fascist sympathies helps explain why he is so loyal as Darth Vader. Yes there's a degree of feeling like he has nowhere else to turn, and perhaps the hope that Padme could still be brought back, but his sympathies towards the Empire's ideology are also a factor.

Edited by king15 on May 1st 2024 at 9:20:57 AM

The core thing that doomed Anakin to the darkside was his own greed and cowardice. While he has been brave through out the war the matters of his marriage to Padme and the impending birth of their child required Anakin to use the same courage that he has shown throughout the war in a different way, in coming clean and accepting the consequences of his actions. Instead in a time when he needed to show the courage that had seen him through the war he chose cowardice and greed. He was to greedy and to cowardly to come clean because it meant that he would lose his status as a Jedi, and Anakin wanted it all, he wanted to be both a Jedi and married to Padme and he wasn't able to muster the courage that he had used throughout the war to accept that he couldn't have it all. That he needed to make a choice. The sad thing is that Padme and the Jedi are on the same side, the Light Side, if he had made a choice on what he truly wanted ironically could have had it all, he could have had a happy life with Padme and while not a Jedi he still would have had the friendship and trust of Obi-wan, and honestly I think Anakin could have accepted that. Instead he choose himself and abandoned his attachment to the Republic, the Jedi, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, his mother, and the woman he loved, Padme.

Yeah. Anakin, strictly going by what's in the films, doesn't really have much of a motivation for turning beyond Padme - Lucas focused pretty hard on his possessiveness and unwillingness to risk losing what he had as the primary factors - that ultimately, when the choice comes between the galaxy and Padme, he decides literally everyone else is expendable.

The novelizaitons and other stuff like TCW sometimes went into his political reasons for doing so, but beyond that conversation in AOTC the films themselves mostly kept his political opinions light.

The Clone Wars also added reasons for his dissatisfaction with the Jedi giving more reason to what looked like a tantrum in ROTS.

It is still come like a tantrum.

And the novelization (which can be very silly) explains to us, that the reason he was angry for not being granted the rank of master, is that he wanted access to the library's master-only sections, when they keep all those Sith Holocrons, and forbidden scrolls, where he was hoping to find a technique he can use to save Padme.

Which was IMO a silly reason, and I prefer the movie version when he is just angry for being "snobed" and "distrusted".

ROTS doesn't totally omit Anakin's political views. Like, he responds to learning Palpatine is giving himself more emergency powers with "Great, totally worth it to end the war!" prompting Obi-Wan to do his best "dubya tee eff mate?" face.

The thing too is that Anakin was meant to be a shadow of Luke, who had a warmer upbringing, a much clearer villain to combat and a stronger support network with mutual trust. Despite all that, Luke was on the edge of repeating all of Anakin's mistakes and it was for the same reason of "whatever it takes to beat the bad guys and protect those I love."

Anakin at the end of the day was just more selfish than Luke. Luke's near falls were him giving in to rage, such as his furious reaction to Anakin threatening to turn his sister — Anakin's own daughter — Leia to the Dark Side.

Anakin? While he gave into rage too — most infamously when he slaughtered the Tusken village — the moment of no return was when he chopped off Mace Windu's arm because he wanted Palpatine's supposed knowledge to keep Padme alive.

Anakin only finally turns away from the Dark Side when he stops being so damn selfish. When he saved Luke from Palpatine, he did so knowing he was probably not going to survive the Force Lightning. But he did it anyway because he didn't care about himself anymore — he just wanted to save his boy.

Edited by M84 on May 1st 2024 at 10:28:16 PM

It's an interesting note that before falling completely, Anakin's biggest use of the dark side was in revenge, whereas Luke's biggest use of the dark side was in defense of others.

Luke flipped the hell out, for sure, but he flipped the hell out in a situation where his enemy was actively plotting to harm someone he cared about.

On an unrelated note, any May the 4th predictions? Tales is coming out, of course, and I'm maybe thinking another Outlaws trailer, but anything else you guys think we might see revealed or showcased that day?

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 1st 2024 at 7:30:08 AM

It's one of the reasons Palpatine's attempt to corrupt him didn't work. The circumstances were all wrong and Palpatine hadn't "prepped" Luke in the same way he had prepped Anakin.

I plan on running my custom Machete Order marathon on May 4th.

A New Hope

The Empire Strikes Back

Star Wars: Clone Wars (Micro Series)

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

Star Wars: Return of the Jedi

(and I will just play everything by ear. If I wanna throw in a Clone Wars episode, watch Episode VII or the like, I do that if I have time.)

For May 4, I'm going to read the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the wise to some kindergarteners to see their reactions.

IDK, Watch Tales of the Empire, maybe pick up a Star Wars comic if they have one for free comic book day (also May 4th), maybe finally finish Thrawn: Treason so I can go read something else in my backlog

Edited by jdeo1997 on May 2nd 2024 at 7:13:04 AM

I always buy a crapload of Star Wars comics on May the 4th, since it’s the one day they’re guaranteed to all be on sale.

It’s why I’m always like a year behind on comic plots lol.

I'll be working. Maybe I'll devote my free time to progressing in Dark Force Rising; I'm at the chapter where Luke meets C'Baoth for the first time, and I find it a bit of a slog compared to the other plotlines.

Other things to do if you are crazy, 1 being the most insane and 5 being the least.

1.) Watch the Holiday Special and/or the Ewok specials without any influence

2.) Play Star Wars: Legends of Tera Kasai with friends

3.) Cosplay as Jar Jar Binks and walk around talking like him

4.) Read the worst fanfiction you can find

5.) Watch Backstroke of the West while UNDER the influence

Okay, what IS the worst Star Wars fanfiction in your experience?

Like not just in bad spelling and grammar errors, I mean with ideas and tropes so badly executed.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 3rd 2024 at 2:59:42 AM